Credits Granted

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Profile River~~
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Message 8830 - Posted: 12 Jan 2006, 10:17:39 UTC

For anyone who hasn't seen the home page, there is now a notice saying that credits have been granted for failed work since 20th Dec, providing it fits into one of the known categories of bad WU.

For more details see the news item on the front page & follow the links.

Thanks to David K for sorting this out

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Profile Paul D. Buck

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Message 8837 - Posted: 12 Jan 2006, 12:15:21 UTC
Last modified: 12 Jan 2006, 12:35:14 UTC

I looked through the file, and just guessing I maybe got all of one CS out of it ... :)

==== edit

Nope, a whopping: 3.2030466747

that will put me ahead! :)

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Profile Fuzzy Hollynoodles
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Message 8841 - Posted: 12 Jan 2006, 13:16:09 UTC - in response to Message 8837.  
Last modified: 12 Jan 2006, 13:26:44 UTC

I looked through the file, and just guessing I maybe got all of one CS out of it ... :)

==== edit

Nope, a whopping: 3.2030466747

that will put me ahead! :)



LOLLLL!! Yeah, those 0.07's really count up! :-D

EDIT: Hey, you missed a couple of mine:

3806813 with result: http://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/result.php?resultid=4832786

3775784 with result: http://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/result.php?resultid=4674905


[b]"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me[/b]

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Profile David E K
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Message 8846 - Posted: 12 Jan 2006, 14:15:24 UTC - in response to Message 8841.  
Last modified: 12 Jan 2006, 14:26:22 UTC



EDIT: Hey, you missed a couple of mine:

3806813 with result: http://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/result.php?resultid=4832786

3775784 with result: http://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/result.php?resultid=4674905



The results show that the granted_credit value is the same as the claimed_credit.

edit: and I found the lines corresponding the two results in the tab delimited list:

3088 116833 7 0.0697947355976911
3088 116833 7 0.0714835958664747

so everything looks okay.
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Message 8848 - Posted: 12 Jan 2006, 14:50:10 UTC
Last modified: 12 Jan 2006, 15:02:02 UTC

Hi David,

I have a few of these units that have claimed several hundred credits in total. Yet my total granted from this process seems to be less than 1.

here is an example of one WU - claimed = 85.61; granted =0

http://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/workunit.php?wuid=4821170


Cheers,

Paul


edit - from the file you have availabel thru tech news:, it seems that all of my WUs were granted very low credit...

[font=courrier]
ID userid hostid teamid granted_credit
4275 418 92733 7 8.24962133409567E-02
11053 418 92733 7 0.111273962180825
17651 418 92733 7 8.63332465196058E-02
21576 418 92733 7 9.97628626448779E-02
22259 418 92733 7 0.101681379234202
28697 418 92733 7 8.24962133409567E-02
30257 418 92733 7 8.82517631089305E-02
37614 418 92733 7 0.109235538304668
38362 418 92733 7 8.63332465196058E-02
57644 418 92733 7 0.103539942180111
61297 418 92733 7 0.109355445591501
67016 418 92733 7 0.109355445591501
67837 418 92733 7 0.103539942180111
70283 418 92733 7 9.94031407843795E-02
78640 418 92733 7 0.101681379234202
116978 418 92733 7 0.110824309855202
116979 418 92733 7 3.60222473420885
116980 418 92733 7 8.24962133409567E-02
116981 418 92733 7 8.44147299302813E-02
116982 418 92733 7 0.113162501948442
116983 418 92733 7 0.093977336055196
116984 418 92733 7 0.109325468769793


ID SumOfgranted_credit
418 8.11119954502401E-02

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Profile David E K
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Message 8849 - Posted: 12 Jan 2006, 15:10:00 UTC

Paul,

I did not grant credit for work units that did not match the criteria mentioned.
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Message 8852 - Posted: 12 Jan 2006, 15:34:15 UTC

ok. Guess I should have read the news in a little more detail!

Thanks David,

Paul.
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Grutte Pier [Wa Oars]~MAB The Frisian
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Message 8854 - Posted: 12 Jan 2006, 16:13:38 UTC
Last modified: 12 Jan 2006, 16:30:08 UTC

Account number = User ID ?
Host ID = Computer ID ?

Time-exceeding WU's not granted ?


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Message 8871 - Posted: 12 Jan 2006, 19:25:40 UTC - in response to Message 8854.  
Last modified: 12 Jan 2006, 19:26:45 UTC

Account number = User ID ?
yes

Host ID = Computer ID ?
yes


Time-exceeding WU's not granted ?

quote from David Kim:
I did not grant credit for work units that did not match the criteria mentioned.


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Grutte Pier [Wa Oars]~MAB The Frisian
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Message 8872 - Posted: 12 Jan 2006, 19:38:25 UTC

For English is not my native language I would like to know how I must read this "work units that were issued bad random number seeds" in relation to time-exceeding WU's.
Somebody ?

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Message 8873 - Posted: 12 Jan 2006, 19:44:37 UTC - in response to Message 8872.  

For English is not my native language I would like to know how I must read this "work units that were issued bad random number seeds" in relation to time-exceeding WU's.
Somebody ?


The time exceeding WU have not been granted credit yet. The "Bad Random Number Seeds" WU usually error out in less than 20 CPU seconds and are a different kind of WU problem.

Regards
Phil


We Must look for intelligent life on other planets as,
it is becoming increasingly apparent we will not find any on our own.
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Grutte Pier [Wa Oars]~MAB The Frisian
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Message 8878 - Posted: 12 Jan 2006, 20:02:15 UTC - in response to Message 8873.  
Last modified: 12 Jan 2006, 20:22:28 UTC

For English is not my native language I would like to know how I must read this "work units that were issued bad random number seeds" in relation to time-exceeding WU's.
Somebody ?


The time exceeding WU have not been granted credit yet. The "Bad Random Number Seeds" WU usually error out in less than 20 CPU seconds and are a different kind of WU problem.

Regards
Phil

Yet or won't be granted at all ?

It's not about the credits, but the way this is handled which is annoying me.
If it's your own fault/mistake you can't complain, but if it's a devs problem they should show there appreceation for all the idle time of all the participants which is lost, but not because of these participants.
During the running of that time-exceeding WU I could've been crunching for another project without those WU problems.
If I knew I had to babysit I would've chosen another medical project.
It gets tyiring.

And about those 20second WU's. I've had a lot of those, but not a single one has been granted for and again it's not about the credits but the whole package.
I have my doubts about these criteria but one can always go somewhere else if one doesn't agree with the politics.

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Message 8879 - Posted: 12 Jan 2006, 20:20:10 UTC - in response to Message 8878.  


Yet or won't be granted at all ?


I said yet because I assume since we have not heard that credit will not be granted, and we have heard that they are looking into this issue, that we will be told something in the future. I have no idea what they will eventually do about this if anything. But I am not going to get worked up over it either. If we get credit for these we get it, if we don't we don't.

I agree that the time could have been used better. What can you say "Stuff Happens!" As for the credits that have been granted, I assume you actually looked at the 4.5 Meg file they provided to see if your credits were there. Frankly, from what I can tell about the amount of credit involved in that exercise David Kim's time could have been put to better use on almost ANY other project issue. In most cases the total credit for any particular user totaled less that 20. We all lose more than that in rounding errors over time.

Lets just wait for a few days and give the project folks a chance to work the issue all the way through. It will not make any difference if you get the credit today or a month from now, so what is the big deal? Just so I don't cause any problems here, usually the awarded credits will show up in the total credit count on your account page as an increase in your total credit, but it will not show up on the WU stats page. If you have been looking at the WU stats for the new credits you won't find them there.

Regards
Phil

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it is becoming increasingly apparent we will not find any on our own.
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Message 8880 - Posted: 12 Jan 2006, 20:26:08 UTC - in response to Message 8879.  
Last modified: 12 Jan 2006, 20:26:38 UTC


Yet or won't be granted at all ?


I said yet because I assume since we have not heard that credit will not be granted,........................

If you have been looking at the WU stats for the new credits you won't find them there.

Regards
Phil

You kept me on this project for now.
We'll see what happens.


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Message 8883 - Posted: 12 Jan 2006, 22:16:32 UTC - in response to Message 8879.  

Yet or won't be granted at all ?


I said yet because I assume since we have not heard that credit will not be granted, and we have heard that they are looking into this issue, that we will be told something in the future.


I have asked again for specifics... I don't expect an answer at this point to be today, but probably tomorrow.

Be sure to look at the text file for credits and not just the results web page.

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Message 8910 - Posted: 13 Jan 2006, 5:50:49 UTC - in response to Message 8878.  

For English is not my native language I would like to know how I must read this "work units that were issued bad random number seeds" in relation to time-exceeding WU's.
Somebody ?


The time exceeding WU have not been granted credit yet. The "Bad Random Number Seeds" WU usually error out in less than 20 CPU seconds and are a different kind of WU problem.

Regards
Phil

Yet or won't be granted at all ?

It's not about the credits, but the way this is handled which is annoying me.
If it's your own fault/mistake you can't complain, but if it's a devs problem they should show there appreceation for all the idle time of all the participants which is lost, but not because of these participants.
During the running of that time-exceeding WU I could've been crunching for another project without those WU problems.
If I knew I had to babysit I would've chosen another medical project.
It gets tyiring.

And about those 20second WU's. I've had a lot of those, but not a single one has been granted for and again it's not about the credits but the whole package.
I have my doubts about these criteria but one can always go somewhere else if one doesn't agree with the politics.



sorry, we will work on the time-exceeding WU next


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Message 8913 - Posted: 13 Jan 2006, 6:03:28 UTC - in response to Message 8910.  

sorry, we will work on the time-exceeding WU next



Thanks David, we know you are very busy and we appreciate your efforts.

Regards
Phil


We Must look for intelligent life on other planets as,
it is becoming increasingly apparent we will not find any on our own.
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Message 8917 - Posted: 13 Jan 2006, 7:22:08 UTC - in response to Message 8913.  
Last modified: 13 Jan 2006, 7:22:58 UTC

sorry, we will work on the time-exceeding WU next



Thanks David, we know you are very busy and we appreciate your efforts.

Regards
Phil

I know/understand they can be busy, but it would've been nicer if they kept us a bit more informed about these things.
Not only what they do or have done, but also what they intend to do.
The speed of the given info/responses etc. was one of the reasons to chose this project.
I'm glad this is cleared up.

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Message 8941 - Posted: 13 Jan 2006, 14:42:01 UTC - in response to Message 8917.  

I know/understand they can be busy, but it would've been nicer if they kept us a bit more informed about these things.
Not only what they do or have done, but also what they intend to do.
The speed of the given info/responses etc. was one of the reasons to chose this project.
I'm glad this is cleared up.


While I _totally_ agree that clear and frequent communication is a major "good thing" in general, and about Rosetta in particular, and while it would have been nice to have 'we will do x, y, and z' two weeks ago, there is one thing that to me is MORE important than "getting it fast".

That is "getting it right". I have wasted 5K+ credits on a "startup project" that had frequent communication and, while obviously understaffed and underfunded, looked like it was going to be fun to be part of. A bad set of WUs went out, credit was given quickly, and the head of the project said "new motto - 'The project where credits are never lost'."

A second set of bad WUs went out, the head of the project said "I'll grant credits on these; I'm busy this week, but next week for sure." This continued for MONTHS. Then the results were deleted, and no credit was ever given, and zero response _yet_ in the threads asking about it. Add in other major problems and delays, and a project that started before Rosetta and was growing quite nicely, is now basically dead. Do I care about the handful of credits I lost? No. I care about the fact that I was lied to.

Looking at the structure of the BOINC databases, and what information is readily available, and having a background in database programming, I can see "what is easy to do" and "what is hard to do" fairly well. Grant credit for errored results still in the database, based on run time less than 2 minutes? No problem at all. Grant credit for WUs named "default_xxxx_205"? Eh, a little more complicated, but not bad. Grant credit for "maximum cpu time exceeded"? Uh... ouch. I wouldn't want to do it in SQL, I'd have to go to a higher-level language like Powerhouse for that one. And then to add in the fact that the earliest results were 'gone' from the database and only available on backups even before the staff _could_ do anything... I can see where it is much easier to deal with it "all in one place", even if that's an archive, rather than having to run everything twice, while making sure you don't grant credit on the same WU more than once.

I am very happy to hear that credit will be given - but I am MUCH happier to see that the staff just didn't say "oh, sure, no problem" before they KNEW if there was a problem or not. I would much rather they take the time to look at the situation, figure out _how_ it can be solved, and even _if_ it can be solved, and THEN tell us either "okay, we'll do that" - or "we'd like to, but we can't, and here's why".

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Message 8942 - Posted: 13 Jan 2006, 14:56:41 UTC - in response to Message 8941.  
Last modified: 13 Jan 2006, 15:00:49 UTC

I know/understand ......................the reasons to chose this project.
I'm glad this is cleared up.


While I _totally_ agree that clear and frequent communication is a major "good thing" in general, ................... even _if_ it can be solved, and THEN tell us either "okay, we'll do that" - or "we'd like to, but we can't, and here's why".


I can only agree with that.
But to me, and I assume to others as well, it (the "Technical News" statement) looked like that was all they were going to do (rather incomplete) and that made me rather grumpy.
As I stated before, it's not about the credits I've lost, they can devide them between the last on the list as far as I'm concerned, but the lack of information etc. on that moment.

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