Would that be the 14 "Teddies" or the other 36,800+ customers?

At least the Teddies... ;-)) And I don't care much about the other 36,800 customers? ... If they want to behave like stupid crunching cattle it's their choice...

BTW My English is known as pretty bad but I translate customer to "Kunde/Verbraucher". If You think that we are customers in this meaning You're on the wrong lane. I don't need them but they need me/us to do the job. I'm only customer of the software they provide.

Here's an idea - why don't YOU contribute by writing a better forum, fully integrated with the BOINC software, and submit it to the dev mailing list for consideration as the standard? If your idea has the merit, it should be considered, yes? Do you need the links to the open-source repository?

I need no links, thanks. But why should I? For sure I can do the job because it's my profession but I see no need to take another burden on my spare free time....

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Teddies....

Dimitris, I think what we are suggesting is not a phpbb or anything else, just a reorganisation of this software to make things easier to find such as information etc., which is proving difficult to find. Same software reorganised boards.

It needs a tidy up.

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Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.

I'm glad You're not from the staff Angus. So please let the staff decide what to do....

(Just remembering an old song: "Keep the customer satisfied")

Would that be the 14 "Teddies" or the other 36,800+ customers?

Here's an idea - why don't YOU contribute by writing a better forum, fully integrated with the BOINC software, and submit it to the dev mailing list for consideration as the standard? If your idea has the merit, it should be considered, yes? Do you need the links to the open-source repository?

Angus, I don't think any of your comments have been helpful or constructive. You might think the same about other posts (and you're probably right!), but you're certainly not helping.

This thread is (or has become) about possible improvements to the project, to allow the project to tap into the massive resource of PCs belonging to people who don't have unlimited bandwidth, or don't have the time, knowledge, patience, or inclination to rummage through the current forums to find the answers they need.

There are basic requirements for a project to be available to almost anyone who
wants to run it, and I think these are the same for most people - two of the main ones being reasonable bandwidth useage and a well laid out forum. This project is seeking massive processing power, but there are a lot of potential CPUs that aren't currently available because either the owner hasn't been able to run the project and hasn't found the help required, or because of the bandwidth requirements. Personally, I have access to around 8GHz that I'll put on the project once the bandwidth requirements are reduced.

I don't think anyone that has posted has suggested at any point that they assume that these basic requirements are either quick or easy to implement - we just want to know that what we regard as issues or improvements are noted by the project.

FC has started a thread on suggestions for the forum layout - I think that'll be helpful, especially for newbies as the current Q&A section seems to get a lot less attention than this section.

Danny

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Angus, I don't think any of your comments have been helpful or constructive. You might think the same about other posts (and you're probably right!), but you're certainly not helping.

This thread is (or has become) about possible improvements to the project, to allow the project to tap into the massive resource of PCs belonging to people who don't have unlimited bandwidth, or don't have the time, knowledge, patience, or inclination to rummage through the current forums to find the answers they need.

There are basic requirements for a project to be available to almost anyone who
wants to run it, and I think these are the same for most people - two of the main ones being reasonable bandwidth useage and a well laid out forum. This project is seeking massive processing power, but there are a lot of potential CPUs that aren't currently available because either the owner hasn't been able to run the project and hasn't found the help required, or because of the bandwidth requirements. Personally, I have access to around 8GHz that I'll put on the project once the bandwidth requirements are reduced.

I don't think anyone that has posted has suggested at any point that they assume that these basic requirements are either quick or easy to implement - we just want to know that what we regard as issues or improvements are noted by the project.

FC has started a thread on suggestions for the forum layout - I think that'll be helpful, especially for newbies as the current Q&A section seems to get a lot less attention than this section.

Danny

Let's face reality here.

BOINC is a multi-project DC community.

It has some things inherent in its design:

WU must be crunched on the PC that downloaded them

Not all projects will have work 100% of the time - hence the multi-project capability. It is DESIGNED to have users crunching more than one project. It is NOT designed primarily as a single project DC application.

Some projects require more bandwidth to support their science. That may not be appropriate for all users - that's their personal decision as to whether they can afford to run certain projects. Don't ask the scientists to compromise their research just to limit the bandwidth usage.

Then, there are some issues with the BOINC (not project) software that still require more work - the feeder issue causing 'no new work', the still not-optimum scheduler, benchmarks or the replacement flops counting to keep credits honest.

The forum software is distributed part and parcel with BOINC. If the project starts tinkering with the forum, it will forever be chasing it's tail every time a new version of BOINC is released that requires new server code. It's intended BY DESIGN to be uniform across BOINC projects.

So - a few dozen orphaned crunchers from the defunct FAD project decide to land here, and things here don't look the same, don't work the same as FAD did, and they aren't 'in charge' like they were over there. So immediately they declare that this project needs a total revamp. They've got one guy with a bunch of PCs with what sounds like a satellite network who can't DL files - that's not the projects fault. Others complain about bandwidth usage. If someone is on a dialup and can't handle +/- 7MB per WU, then crunch something else! They don't like the forum features (or lack of features), but won't go bring the subject up on the BOINC forum or dev list, but rather complain about it here.

It's been explained exhaustively why wholesale changes to the forum are not feasable - but this bunch can't seem to comprehend, and keep bringing it back up.

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Proudly Banned from Predictator@Home and now Cosmology@home as well. Added SETI to the list today. Temporary ban only - so need to work harder :)



"You can't fix stupid" (Ron White)

Danny[/quote]


So - a few dozen orphaned crunchers from the defunct FAD project decide to land here, and things here don't look the same, don't work the same as FAD did, and they aren't 'in charge' like they were over there. So immediately they declare that this project needs a total revamp. They've got one guy with a bunch of PCs with what sounds like a satellite network who can't DL files - that's not the projects fault. Others complain about bandwidth usage. If someone is on a dialup and can't handle +/- 7MB per WU, then crunch something else! They don't like the forum features (or lack of features), but won't go bring the subject up on the BOINC forum or dev list, but rather complain about it here.

It's been explained exhaustively why wholesale changes to the forum are not feasable - but this bunch can't seem to comprehend, and keep bringing it back up.
[/quote]
A few dozen??? If the Rosetta team wants more cpu power then the program needs some adjusting to appeal to the average people.I may be just a Dumb truck driver BUT I can see that.Maybe some of the super programmers can write this program in ruby,then everybody can have fun.
Seriously,all the complaining an nit-picking doesn't help.Telling people to go else where doesn't help Rosetta either.
Angus, my RAC is only a quarter of what it could be because of the problems with boinc an Rosetta.

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Simap@Home have got there forum up to scratch Simap Forum
this is what is needed here... its easy to find info easy..

When i first came here it was hell on earth trying to find information.

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Let's face reality here.

BOINC is a multi-project DC community.

It has some things inherent in its design:

WU must be crunched on the PC that downloaded them

Not all projects will have work 100% of the time - hence the multi-project capability. It is DESIGNED to have users crunching more than one project. It is NOT designed primarily as a single project DC application.

[quote]Some projects require more bandwidth to support their science.

Agreed, but then you've missed the point. The no-work thing isn't because there isn't work to be done - it's generally a bug and has been pointed out as such, which it should be for the benefit of the project.

That may not be appropriate for all users - that's their personal decision as to whether they can afford to run certain projects. Don't ask the scientists to compromise their research just to limit the bandwidth usage.

We're not. It's been shown that the Rosetta bandwidth requirements can be reduced quite drastically with better compression and more intelligent file utilisation - which has NO effect on the science. No-one has said - or suggested - that this is expected to happen either immediately, or even soon - but it's one of the things thats hindering the growth of this project ATM, and so it needed recognising - and more importantly to us - we needed to be informed that it was recognised (which we have been)!

Then, there are some issues with the BOINC (not project) software that still require more work - the feeder issue causing 'no new work', the still not-optimum scheduler, benchmarks or the replacement flops counting to keep credits honest.

Agreed, again. Everyone here knows its a new project with limited resources, and these things will take time. Some people invest an incredible amount of personal resources to run DC apps, and they get very frustrated when their computers are idling when they know that there is work to be done. I think it's a fair trade to expect some of these frustrations to be vented on the forum in exchange for the massive contributions! Most will appologise if they overstep the mark, and generally all it takes is aknowledgement of the problem to pacify.

The forum software is distributed part and parcel with BOINC. If the project starts tinkering with the forum, it will forever be chasing it's tail every time a new version of BOINC is released that requires new server code. It's intended BY DESIGN to be uniform across BOINC projects.

True, but that doesn't make it any more intuitive or well laid out. I think it could be more user friendly - it doesn't really make much difference to me how it's laid out - I read through all the posts anyway - but for those who are just here for an answer to a question it's far from ideal. If it's down to it being part of BOINC then the suggestions for improvement still stand. The request was only for a change to the layout - I'd be supprised if it required any software changes.

So - a few dozen orphaned crunchers from the defunct FAD project decide to land here, and things here don't look the same, don't work the same as FAD did, and they aren't 'in charge' like they were over there. So immediately they declare that this project needs a total revamp.

You're exaggerating and wrong (not necessarily in that order!). There were a lot more than a few dozen. There were more than a few dozen that came over just from your team! No-one has suggested a re-vamp either. We were spoiled at FaD - the software wasn't pretty but it was effective and ran on almost anything. Rosetta is a logical place to migrate to, and I'm sure the Rosetta team are glad that so many have come here. However, a large proportion of the CPU time that FaD got can't be used here because of the noted issues such as the bandwidth requirements.

FaD also required a fraction of the memory that Rosetta requires, but people understand that this is the nature of the rosetta beast, and as a result I haven't seen ONE complaint about that! They're running elsewhere, or have even upgraded to suit. The bandwidth and no work issues are things that can be resolved without affecting the science.

They've got one guy with a bunch of PCs with what sounds like a satellite network who can't DL files - that's not the projects fault.

There's a LOT more than one user affected by these problems, as you well know.

Others complain about bandwidth usage. If someone is on a dialup and can't handle +/- 7MB per WU, then crunch something else!

The complaints about bandwidth are fully justified! The project wants as many users as possible, and those affected by bandwidth constraints probably make up more than half of the available reource. It's not just dial-up users that are affected as it's been stated plenty of times- many people are on capped broadband too, and Rosetta alone can use their entire monthly allowance. These users contribute massively to the available resource. Users like hob have switched to other projects or shut down until this is practical for them. If the downloads were an inherent need of rosetta then I don't think you'd hear the complaints - but [without wanting to retread old ground] it's been show that it's not a requirement.

They don't like the forum features (or lack of features), but won't go bring the subject up on the BOINC forum or dev list, but rather complain about it here.

FC started a thread of suggestions here two or three days ago (as requested by the project staff)!

It's been explained exhaustively why wholesale changes to the forum are not feasable - but this bunch can't seem to comprehend, and keep bringing it back up.

You're exaggerating again... And whether it's a BONIC issue or not, the suggestions stand. If it means they need to be directed to BOINC then this is still a good place to start. Of course, if there were a seperate BOINC thread then the posts could all go in there!

I think this thread is getting tired - as Carl said, the questions have been answered, so I'm done!

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It's been explained exhaustively why wholesale changes to the forum are not feasable - but this bunch can't seem to comprehend, and keep bringing it back up.

Can you explain again to me then ? Because I dont see what effect creating a few more sections would have on the ability to maintain the project, or what the difficulty is and why there should be a need for major code changes to do this ?

Angus you are only proving beyond all doubt what a troll you are....

Time and again it has been stated, not that we are the only ones not happy with forum....but also David Kim....<-----remember him...

Time and again it has been stated that there are problems with "no work "...and David Kim <----remember him....put a fix in

David Kim <---remember him...also said compression is being looked at...

I`ve checked a couple of other projects and see on them too your only contribution has been flames and trolling. I do understand now why you never got back here last night after 8, past your bedtime obviously. If you keep being naughty I expect your Mummy will stop you using the internet.

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Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.

Angus whined:

They've got one guy with a bunch of PCs with what sounds like a satellite network who can't DL files - that's not the projects fault.

Don't get your panties all up in a wad Dingus... I've gone elsewhere that has more sensible sized work units and don't have any problems getting work, crunching them and returning completed jobs....So you'll have to pick someone else to whine about.... Cheers!

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Join the Teddies@WCG

This is turning into a flame war... (I'm not innocent either) I think enough has been said - the original questions have been answered.

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This is turning into a flame war... (I'm not innocent either) I think enough has been said - the original questions have been answered.

Correct and if it does not stop here and now then I will stop it. I do not like censorship anymore than the rest of you but if that is what you want then I can do that for you.

This project is about science, distributed computing and protein folding. Unless you have something relevant to actually working on those areas, take it of line.

A thread has been opened here on the topic of forums and the structure of the forums. The project leaders have said they will look at the ideas. While that subject should rightfully be placed in a topic area other than "Number Crunching", and may be moved for that reason, it is available for Ideas to be posted.

Feel free to continue to post ideas, but the "tit for tat" insults are no longer welcome, and will be deleted.

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Moderator9
ROSETTA@home FAQ
Moderator Contact

While that subject should rightfully be placed in a topic area other than "Number Crunching", and may be moved for that reason,...

Ok then Mr Moderator I think you have just agreed with us! ;-)))

If it does not belong in Number Crunching, it certainly does not belong in Rosetta Science and cannot go in Cafe as that is just for swapping stories according to its heading....so.....where can it be moved to.....I know, lets create some more topic forums....that seems to be a good idea! ;-)

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Simap@Home have got there forum up to scratch Simap Forum
this is what is needed here... its easy to find info easy..

When i first came here it was hell on earth trying to find information.

Simap has to be the ugliest least user friendly forum on BOINC.

Nothing functionally wrong with the Standard BOINC Forum.

While that subject should rightfully be placed in a topic area other than "Number Crunching", and may be moved for that reason,...

Ok then Mr Moderator I think you have just agreed with us! ;-)))

If it does not belong in Number Crunching, it certainly does not belong in Rosetta Science and cannot go in Cafe as that is just for swapping stories according to its heading....so.....where can it be moved to.....I know, lets create some more topic forums....that seems to be a good idea! ;-)

With the current setup. it would go in Q&A | WishList or Web Site , either of which are much more topically correct than here.

That brings another thought - I hope that the project folks are checking those two areas, as those are 'suggestion box' areas that new users are posting to.

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Proudly Banned from Predictator@Home and now Cosmology@home as well. Added SETI to the list today. Temporary ban only - so need to work harder :)



"You can't fix stupid" (Ron White)

It's been explained exhaustively why wholesale changes to the forum are not feasable - but this bunch can't seem to comprehend, and keep bringing it back up.

Can you explain again to me then ? Because I dont see what effect creating a few more sections would have on the ability to maintain the project, or what the difficulty is and why there should be a need for major code changes to do this ?

Software changes, seemingly minor have a way of spirling out of control. I have not looked at the problem in detail, but, just off the top of my head ...

1) adding forums means that you have to make a new set of lead in pages. These pages are no longer standard BOINC and if the same name, each change will have to make sure that they do not get over-written by the standard files.
2) If we add forums, the forums are identified by a number in the database, so, now, we added forums, say, 10, 11, and 12 ... now if the BOINC Standard code adds these forum numbers to the system, we either have to migrate our numbers or change the new standard numbers.
3) If there are internal checks in the code for forum numbers and limits, these all have to be checked and manually maintained.

At a minimum, these are the initial "gottchas" that I can see ... I am CERTAIN that I missed some. Which is why I urge caution. If Rosetta@Home makes a change and that change is not compatible with the current system, AND tranparent to the changes being done to the standard system software, well, then they will have to maintain the changes and do manual work each and every time the system is upgraded. And, the future changes may "break" the changes done by the project in subtle ways requiring them to troubleshoot their non-standard code on their own ...

The whole point of using a standard package software solution like BOINC, or phpBB, is to eliminate the need for a lot of custom work by the project. You want to leverage the time avilable and not spend it on guilding the lily.

There are some now that think I am opposed to the potential of a change. Not really, I just have not seen a compelling case that a change is going to improve things. Team invites get scattered among forums even when there are identified forums for this, or in the case of BOINC, where the advisory text says put them in Cafe'.

People with problems are going to post in almost any forum. In some cases they will post in ALL the forums for some reason thinking that this will speed solutions. So, adding forums will do little to "sort" the posts. Nothing in my experience says that posters will pay attention to more categories than they do with the 6 or so we have as standard ...

So, I hope that answers the question you asked. :)

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This from the Q&P section

While Rosetta's intent is to be the "best" of the BOINC projects, we're still one of the smaller ones in terms of number of participants. As a result, the number of volunteers available to answer questions in the "Questions and Problems" area is limited.

Your question will be seen by more people if you can use the "Number Crunching" forum in the Message Boards instead - indeed, your question may have already been answered in a thread over there.

This Q&P section will likely be deleted soon, with a new "help" area in the forums; some questions here are going too long without an answer, and we'd like to remedy that.

Paul I don`t think anyone is asking for a deviance in scripts. I think what is being spoken about is a much clearer sectioned forum. Regards things being posted off-topic then this is a mods job to do...move, edit , delete. I know this adds to their workload but it is the generally accepted view of what mods do.

Now those comfy slippers of yours are great I can see that, but they`re a bit old with lots of holes in. Believe me the confusion that this forum is for newcomers is overwhelming, even for old time crunchers. I know where everything is around my workstation and where each CD/DVD is but my wife would like them in alphabetical order, easier to find.....

Perhaps if the upkeep of this place had been kept better initially....but that would have meant a workload on someone with more important things to do (What you told us we had to avoid). It hasn`t been kept clear and concise and is now a nightmare to traverse IMHO.

Your worry, IMHO, is that we are demanding radical changes to alter the structure of the beast, this is not so. We are asking for a clearer forum, clearer information on the how`s and why`s, a dedicated area for the scientist to tell us what is being looked into re the project. We`re not asking for a total rewrite of Boinc. You and a couple of others seem to have the whole thing way out of proportion. As a programmer I expect you can see all that has been asked for by , what a few of you deem, the newbies is possible within the existing frame without great alterations if any.

I don`t want newbies to come here, install Boinc and Rosetta look for answers, give up after 5 mins cos they`re confused and uninstall do you ?

We are experienced crunchers, experienced users of the internet....we`ve had trouble here Paul finding answers or getting help. What does this mean for a newbie ? Do you want this project to grow ?

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Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.

So, I hope that answers the question you asked. :)

Not really.


I see many others are doing their own thing too.

Paul, I do not know how much you know about the forum software here at BOINC, I know I only know how to use it :) I have no looked at the back end of it.

On bulletin board I have used (UBB, VBB, phpBB, Invision as examples) These are all similar style boards, you use a Control Panel at the back end to just simply add sections, move them around etc as all they are doing is manipulating the database (most often MySQL or similar) and an upgrade to the 'board software' unless something major (even then they now work pretty much flawlessly) does not alter forum sections.

So what I think i am reading is
The forum sections are hardcoded ?

Well that will cause problems then :-( At which point it will be down to Dr Anderson to become open minded and allow flexibility or at least take head of the feedback he gets

People with problems are going to post in almost any forum. In some cases they will post in ALL the forums for some reason thinking that this will speed solutions. So, adding forums will do little to "sort" the posts. Nothing in my experience says that posters will pay attention to more categories than they do with the 6 or so we have as standard ...

You mentioned you did not go to other places (with other style BB software), over sectioning causes problems (just look at my teams home forum it is a nightmare, I've managed to get a few merged but hey the owner pays so ultimtly it is up to him, my same belief here, it is up to Rosetta as we do not have to be here or volunteer our time, they do)
But not enough sections, unclear layout and seperation causes cross posting random where do i post sort of thing.
It's a cross between keepin it organised but not overly organised, grouping thing togetehr but seperating parts that should be kept seperate (for example all beta testing talk should be in it's own section, but make it clear it beta talk)

The problem as you said is there are always some that just post anywhere, often because they do no know where to post and that is traditionaly mods and admins jobs to redirect the post to another place. My Forum Section post should really go in the WebSite suggestions area, but then very few will see it from past experience.

A clearer forum should make people post LESS in the Help forums as they shouldn't need to post.

Twists and Roundabout - Make it easy for Beginners to find the information and know where to ask, while making useful enough for the experienced to bother posting and checking.

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Team mauisun.org

All credit to Moderator9 who is now doing a stirling job of tidying up the place. Thankyou number 9.

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Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.