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Message 7149 - Posted: 22 Dec 2005, 9:03:13 UTC
Last modified: 22 Dec 2005, 9:17:32 UTC

These messages were moved to this thread for various reasons; "stretching" the width of the original
thread, off-topic or offensive, etc. They are not messages that warrant "deletion", and no offense is
intended by moving them here; this is done simply to keep the forums running as smoothly as possible.

If they were moved due to "stretching", a replacement post has been added to the original thread,
with only formatting changes.

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Message 7393 - Posted: 23 Dec 2005, 18:43:25 UTC - in response to Message 7226.  

if this is a hard thing for you to handle perhaps you should stop giving help


I'll make a deal with you - I'll stop giving you help. There are plenty of others here that can do so if they choose.

EDIT:: I just double-checked something. I know I said I'd stop helping, but... Windows ME is not supported by Rosetta. Seems it doesn't report CPU times back to the application correctly.


That was a really helpful response Bill, not! Have you checked the input that the project is getting from Lauren? I'm not sure you fully understand the role of moderator, voluntary or otherwise. Moderatorn a person who presides over at a public or legislative assembly. You are there to handle complaints or problems - not to exagerate them.
If you read his post you will see that he clearly states that he is a plumber and has little or no technical expertise in the computing field. Why didn't you carefully explain what details you require and how to get them, you may then have got the information you required. Instead you have managed to drive away a volunteer who gave the project a heck of a lot of crunching power.


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Message 7394 - Posted: 23 Dec 2005, 19:08:55 UTC - in response to Message 7393.  
Last modified: 23 Dec 2005, 19:10:10 UTC

Have you checked the input that the project is getting from Lauren? I'm not sure you fully understand the role of moderator, voluntary or otherwise. Moderatorn a person who presides over at a public or legislative assembly. You are there to handle complaints or problems - not to exagerate them.

Just because Lauren is a large contributor he can be abrupt? Impolite?

His first post said: "I have been getting WU's that the time clock just stops and takes a reboot to get it going again I have had to reboot over 100 systems in the past 2 days
My points per day is 1/2 what it is on a norm. I guess I should just shut down my network till you can solve this problem. As I have little time to babysit your client with the holly days here or just change to another project
"

Bill asked for information and did try to work through the problem. But, this initial posting, and the next couple contained little information, nor a request for what information might be needed.

Maybe it is only me. Or maybe it is because I get one or two e-mails a week, often using language that should be consider inappropriate for opening a conversation with a stranger. But, I know when I have a question I ask as nicely as I can for help.

Just because I have 9 computers and do a heck of a lot of work I should get special consideration? I don't think so. The same goes for anyone else. Sorry, but, to be honest rude people throwing their weight around was one of the problems in SETI@Home Classic's Team concept ... do it my way or I will leave and the team goes down the standings ...

Fix this right now or I will leave and take my 100 computers with me so you had better listen ...

That is not a request for help. That is a rude demand. Sorry. *I* have little sympathy. Do I want him to leave? No. Do I want to solve his problems? Yes. Is it too much to ask for a little politeness?

Gee guys, I am having this problem, I am a plumber and have little experience but it seems my 100 computers are doing awful stuff and I would hate to leave the project but... can you help me? What do you need to know about my systems ... they are running Windows ME and the clock seems to stop ...

Now, that is how *I* would have started ... then again, that is just me ... for some strange reason I think being polite is a nice thing to do ...
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Message 7395 - Posted: 23 Dec 2005, 19:24:02 UTC - in response to Message 7394.  

His first post said: "I have been getting WU's that the time clock just stops and takes a reboot to get it going again I have had to reboot over 100 systems in the past 2 days
My points per day is 1/2 what it is on a norm. I guess I should just shut down my network till you can solve this problem. As I have little time to babysit your client with the holly days here or just change to another project
"


Actually, just to keep the record straight - that wasn't his first post. That was the second that I'd read that day from him. The first is the one where he was aborting WU's because he didn't like their names, here.

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Message 7397 - Posted: 23 Dec 2005, 19:36:46 UTC

Yes Paul,

but a moderator should show a lot more care in replies than the day to day user. They have to remain above any condescension.

Bill's replies show quite a bit of exasperation in my opinion which should never be the case for a moderator. Cases of "shouting" by uppercasing words. This quote from one of his replies in particular does not read well at all (IMO)..

Several issues here. "Time clock just stops" is a new problem, if it's really a problem. Of course, with zero information from you on this, even though you have had it occur "over 100 times", it is hard to give any information. This is your FIRST posting on the issue. When the clock stops, is the status of the result by any chance "preempted"? And please, explain why a _reboot_ would be necessary? Are you sure that the problem isn't the OPERATING SYSTEM locking up, maybe because you're way overclocked, and not anything to do with Rosetta?

If the problem is NOT as you describe, if the problem is instead the one being discussed in this thread, then you have had over 100 examples of something the project is asking for help to solve, yet you have not given the project any assistance. Instead you prefer to complain about the WU _names_ (in another thread) and now blame the project for what sounds like a problem on your end, or a total misunderstanding of the way the system works.

In general, as much as I'm sure the project appreciates your (considerable) computer power, if you are only in this for the "points per day" and not to help the project, and expect the project to cater to your whims and jump to solve your problems, while you are unwilling to give the project any help in solving these problems, my _personal_ opinion is that you WOULD be happier with another project. Somewhere that the science would be less important, and you could get all the credits you want. I would suggest SETI.

If you are here to volunteer your CPU time to a worthy effort, and not just to earn credits, then you need to start asking questions instead of jumping to conclusions. We are all happy to help anyone with a problem.


Moderating can be difficult, I've done it for years and have made mistakes too, but you have to keep a cool head and remain impartial..

my 2p worth..

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Message 7399 - Posted: 23 Dec 2005, 19:40:54 UTC - in response to Message 7395.  

His first post said: "I have been getting WU's that the time clock just stops and takes a reboot to get it going again I have had to reboot over 100 systems in the past 2 days
My points per day is 1/2 what it is on a norm. I guess I should just shut down my network till you can solve this problem. As I have little time to babysit your client with the holly days here or just change to another project
"


Actually, just to keep the record straight - that wasn't his first post. That was the second that I'd read that day from him. The first is the one where he was aborting WU's because he didn't like their names, here.



Meanwhile, you just carry on with your own attitude problem - where is this going to end?
Just because a person approaches you in a way you don't like it seems to make it alright for you to be unhelpful and tell them to leave the project. Now that is what I call 'brilliant forum moderation'!
Perhaps after the first post you could have explained that these were legitimate WU names and not to worry. At least that would have settled the 'volunteer's' concerns on that matter. Also, if they are having to reboot to solve it does it not make it impossible to retrieve any informattion before rebooting. I know when my PC freezes it stops me doing anything other than 'press the button'.
I only ask that, as a moderator, you do your best to resolve problems and not act like a child taking his ball back 'cos someone says something the wrong way.
This is not me being rude, just some straight talking from a straight guy.
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Message 7402 - Posted: 23 Dec 2005, 19:45:48 UTC

This thread has gotten very off-topic.
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Message 7405 - Posted: 23 Dec 2005, 19:52:44 UTC - in response to Message 7402.  

This thread has gotten very off-topic.


And with your list of titles I would have expected a lot more helpful input than just to complain about being off-topic. Does nobody here know how to resolve a problem. I hope you have plenty of volunteers available because you'll start losing them very quickly with this sort of attitude.
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Message 7409 - Posted: 23 Dec 2005, 20:38:21 UTC

This is what I already said on this topic:

I have no problem helping you if you ask for help. But if you come in with the "I'll just shut down if you don't solve your problem" attitude, then you're going to get attitude right back. There is NO reason to reboot a system because of ANY Rosetta problem. So the first step in solving this is to stop rebooting and instead, describe what is happening, copy/paste any messages from the Messages tab, and give us some information so we can begin to solve the problem.


And that's also the _last_ thing I have to say on the topic.

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Message 7412 - Posted: 23 Dec 2005, 20:45:19 UTC

Well, then you've lost any chance of respect from me.


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Message 7432 - Posted: 23 Dec 2005, 22:29:12 UTC

Bill, you can delete messages - there is a link at the top of the message for you to use. Be aware that once you delete the message, you still can see it - but the link changes to [undelete message]. Hope it helps.
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Message 7436 - Posted: 23 Dec 2005, 23:00:32 UTC
Last modified: 23 Dec 2005, 23:07:39 UTC

***NOT (?yet?) a moderated message ***

hi Bill,

it is great that you are moving troublesome
messages off the original thread, and even
better that you are moving rather than deleting.

However, it is not so useful to lump them all
into one thread. Eventually this will be
enormous, and contain every form of mis-post
imaginable, from my famous line-stretcher
to the troll rants.

So I'd like to suggest that in future it
would be more useful to start a new thread for
each originating thread. So messages moved from
the FooBar thread would go into the
FooBar (moderated messages) thread, messages
from I got too much credit would be moved to
I got too much credit (moderated messages) and
so on.

There is no effective limit (and no extra charge)
for creating extra threads!

R~~
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Message 7447 - Posted: 24 Dec 2005, 0:24:02 UTC
Last modified: 24 Dec 2005, 0:29:29 UTC

I know about the "delete" button - I've used it on double-posts. I have a philosophical problem with
using it for anything "just because I don't like it". If someone starts making personal attacks, then
'delete'. As long as it's off-topic, wrong thread, stretching, things like that... I'd rather just move it
somewhere so it doesn't interfere with someone looking for help. The tag says "moderator", not
"censor", and I see my "moderator" job as being to help the boards run smoothly, not to keep someone
from getting their feelings hurt.

I'm quite sure even _moving_ a post will get somebody terribly upset, but I can "take the heat".

Note that my "moderator" job, as far as _I_ am concerned, only comes into play when I hit one of those
little "moderator only" buttons, or if I'm discussing (as I am here) moderation. When I am replying to a
question, well, I was doing that _before_ the tag was added under my name, just as I do on five _other_
boards. I wasn't advised that it was an "either-or" case, I was asked if I would take on the _additional_
task. As I've said elsewhere, if I'd been thinking about it, I would have asked that the moderator tag be
placed on a _new_ account name; "Guido the bouncer", or "Volunteer moderator", or whatever, and then
keeping the two of "me" separate wouldn't be an issue. If the "moderator me" is doing "too much", then
frankly I'll be amazed, because my whole philosophy is to do as little as possible, but I'll hang up the
tag with no hard feelings in that case. If the "question answering me" causes dissention, then I'll do
whatever the project folks want; remove the tag and the job, quit answering questions, or start using
two accounts. There is not a "fourth option" there, of answering questions without being a human
being; I can't and won't do that. It _should_ be plain to anyone that I am not paid by the project, I do
not represent the project, I do not speak for the project, I'm just another participant, with not even a
huge amount of credits. Heck, I've never even _met_ anyone on the project, and only have a couple of
their email addresses! Anyone who doesn't understand that, well, I'll try to explain it, and if they _still_
don't get it, it's just not my problem.

On threads: I also don't really like creating unnecessary threads. If a thread "splits" into two topics, and
it gets to the point where I really need to move one topic elsewhere, that's fine, and I'll do that. If one
topic looks to be really "short", and I'm only moving it for stretching, or "off-topic, interference"
purposes (as was this case), I'd rather use one thread for them. However, I'd say the limit is "one more".
Once you get three things moved "out of the way", then the fourth really needs another thread,
otherwise people looking at "thing 4" wind up re-starting discussing "thing 1" or whatever. Of course, if
this topic keeps getting added to, before "thing 3" comes along, I'll create a new moderated thread for
"thing 3"... It's a "play it by ear" situation.

Edit:: It's always interesting to see certain people on a board where you aren't expecting them! Hi Rytis!
:-) Next to come along will probably be Janus! Or Theirry, or...

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Message 7452 - Posted: 24 Dec 2005, 0:53:28 UTC - in response to Message 7447.  


Note that my "moderator" job, as far as _I_ am concerned, only comes into play when I hit one of those
little "moderator only" buttons, or if I'm discussing (as I am here) moderation.

Unfortunately, the system labels every posting as being by
a moderator - or that is how most people will see the tag
under your name in the author column.

It _should_ be plain to anyone that I am not paid by the
project, I do not represent the project, I do not speak
for the project, I'm just another participant, with not even a
huge amount of credits.

You can make it more obvious if you make these kind
of comments in a profile. Then if the need arises to
tell/remind people, you could just tell them to "refer
to my profile (click the 'head' icon)"



On threads: I also don't really like creating unnecessary
threads. If a thread "splits" into two topics, and
it gets to the point where I really need to move one
topic elsewhere, that's fine, and I'll do that.

If one topic looks to be really "short", and I'm
only moving it for stretching, or "off-topic, interference"
purposes (as was this case), I'd rather use one thread for them.

But what you are doing is merging what are effectively two
separate threads. On-topic stretches do not belong together
with off-topic rants.

If we want people to put effort into finding appropriate
names for their threads, the name of the moderated thread
should reflect the content of the messages not (only) the fact
that they have been moderated.

Finally, by having separate threads, if a troll resurrects
their rant, at least they do not resurrect the *other*
rants that have been thankfully forgotten.

Just my opinion - and as I said before I'm much
happier you are doing *something* about them than
I am unhappy over the exact detail of what.

R~~
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Message 7455 - Posted: 24 Dec 2005, 1:04:55 UTC - in response to Message 7452.  
Last modified: 24 Dec 2005, 1:08:19 UTC

You can make it more obvious if you make these kind
of comments in a profile. Then if the need arises to
tell/remind people, you could just tell them to "refer
to my profile (click the 'head' icon)"

<snip>

But what you are doing is merging what are effectively two
separate threads. On-topic stretches do not belong together
with off-topic rants.


Very good points. I didn't even realize that I'd never created a profile here, I'll do that _and_ put in this
info. And you're right on the "thread merge" factor; I really never intended for _anything_ to be _added_
to the thread, it was just a place to put things that I thought wouldn't be necessary... if it's going to be
a topic, it should have it's own thread.

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Message 7466 - Posted: 24 Dec 2005, 2:00:23 UTC

The option to report offensive posts is broken.

Generates this message:
This project has not yet defined an administrator to handle this kind of forum reports. Please contact the project and tell them to add this information in their html/project/project.inc file

Proudly Banned from Predictator@Home and now Cosmology@home as well. Added SETI to the list today. Temporary ban only - so need to work harder :)



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Message 7469 - Posted: 24 Dec 2005, 2:11:54 UTC - in response to Message 7466.  
Last modified: 24 Dec 2005, 4:04:37 UTC

The option to report offensive posts is broken.


Hm. Hopefully someone will fix that, there are times it would be used.

EDIT:: Total rewrite...
If there is a current posting somewhere that you find offensive, you can send me an email, and I will
take a look at the other posting. I'll warn you that I am not easily offended, so I may not do anything
about it. There are other moderators here that I _know_ are much more easily offended than I am...*

My email address is (based on my screenname here) firstname dot lastname at comcast dot net.

I _do_ ask that anyone emailing me put "Rosetta" in the subject somewhere, so I'll have a clue...

----

*I actually find it funny... I just added up my posts to all the BOINC boards, and I've made 1,893 up to
this moment. Including a handful where I told someone to, um, do a unix file-system check on
themselves. Today I had one deleted by a moderator for the first time, and it was here... Which,
looking at the ones that were deleted (I can see them even after they were deleted), I understand
completely, and given a "more pro-active" approach to moderating, I have no problem with. I just
think that the choice used in the pulldown would have been more accurate if it was deleted as being
"offensive", or "offtopic", rather than "obscene". I suspect the choice was the default top-in-alpha-order
one, but still... :-P

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Message 7533 - Posted: 24 Dec 2005, 17:27:12 UTC
Last modified: 24 Dec 2005, 17:28:20 UTC

Well, I hang in other projects' forums from time to time :) You can learn a lot
from other projects. And to let you know, Rosetta is the project with my highest
resource share (what a surprise, even higher than PrimeGrid. Hehe).

Returning to the topic, I have some additions to the message boards in my
project - we have topic title editing for moderators and thread/post recounting
after the moderation, and even smilies and private messages :) And that's built
on the standard BOINC forum software (OK, private messages are not merged into
the forum code, it's my Perl stuff, and it's pretty hard to merge everything).

I have submitted smilies to Janus for checkin (I do not have write access to the
CVS, sadly), however, as he is working on a complete forum rewrite, a lot of
code has changed, so most probably he did not want to work twice integrating
that into the code. Or other reasons, only he can answer that.

Hopefully, the new forum software will give a helping hand to moderators. If
not, I promise, I'll give it a part of my time and integrate my updates into the
new forums.

Regarding your "moderator" tag - I often hang in neowin.net forums, and
moderators there do brilliant job - they act like simple users, and if there
weren't posts in italics (thread closed ;)) and a moderator tag, you
would not know they are moderators. Just be plain yourself :)

Hey, and that fsck call was good :D

Merry Christmas everyone!

[edit] Linebreaks, this thread is too wide.
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Message 7534 - Posted: 24 Dec 2005, 17:52:15 UTC

Mr. Bill needs to rachet down his style and tone a whole bunch.

His initial response to laurenu2 on the hanging WUs started off from the first paragraph in an insulting and attacking tone, and totally out of line with the simple statement laurenu2 made, in an appropriate thread.

Moderators need to hold themselves to a higher standard of posting, bacause they do have the moderator tag.

I'm not sure Bill will ever tone down, so the splitting into two personas (a "helper" and a "moderator") isn't going to help. He'll still be making rude and insulting posts to people simply looking for help, and I doubt he will "moderate" himself.

Angus
Free-DC
Proudly Banned from Predictator@Home and now Cosmology@home as well. Added SETI to the list today. Temporary ban only - so need to work harder :)



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Message 7547 - Posted: 24 Dec 2005, 20:08:57 UTC - in response to Message 7534.  

Mr. Bill needs to rachet down his style and tone a whole bunch.

His initial response to laurenu2 on the hanging WUs started off from the first paragraph in an insulting and attacking tone, and totally out of line with the simple statement laurenu2 made, in an appropriate thread.

Moderators need to hold themselves to a higher standard of posting, bacause they do have the moderator tag.

I'm not sure Bill will ever tone down, so the splitting into two personas (a "helper" and a "moderator") isn't going to help. He'll still be making rude and insulting posts to people simply looking for help, and I doubt he will "moderate" himself.

Angus
Free-DC

Bill's reply was _not_ his first or 'initial' respons to Laurenu2.
There were many other responses and requests for more info in other threads.
Those requests never got answered like you would expect on a forum, not only
leaving Bill Michael out in the blue, but also giving other forum members the
impression Laurenu2 is/was on a personal crusade. The purpose of these forums
is to discuss 'like in Q & A'. It's not to simply vent one's frustration and then leave it be.
I _personally_ dislike the way FreeDC is handling (and blowing up) this
incident. The issue has grown far beyond reasonable levels. It has become a
FreeDC against Rosetta issue, something I deeply regret and do not comprehend
at all. I've seen similar threads at FaD, with some of the same FreeDC people
involved, so I don't like what I'm seeing here 1 bit!
I sincerely hope FreeDC and the Rosetta community will come to peace soon !!

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