Closed to all, but those with stinky feet

Message boards : Number crunching : Closed to all, but those with stinky feet

To post messages, you must log in.

Previous · 1 . . . 7 · 8 · 9 · 10 · 11 · Next

AuthorMessage
Profile carl.h
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 28 Dec 05
Posts: 555
Credit: 183,449
RAC: 0
Message 28756 - Posted: 30 Sep 2006, 11:58:23 UTC
Last modified: 30 Sep 2006, 12:03:18 UTC

So the same can be said for Political decisions.

Catch 22. I tell you what, you don`t bring in politics , I won`t bring in law.


I don't care about what was once stated. If it's revealed that it was unfair, and if this can be changed retroactive, imho it has to be done asap for fairness sake.


It has been clearly stated that it is impossible, which part of impossible does not translate into German ? ;-)
Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.
ID: 28756 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
Jose

Send message
Joined: 28 Mar 06
Posts: 820
Credit: 48,297
RAC: 0
Message 28757 - Posted: 30 Sep 2006, 12:03:31 UTC - in response to Message 28752.  
Last modified: 30 Sep 2006, 12:07:16 UTC

Edit:
As long as you call the want of fairness whining, I will definitely call the want for the stay of non-work-related credits whining.


Your point is disagreement with law (political/technical decision).

Jose`s point is political discussion in favour of existing law.



Carl I am going to give you an example using another project on why I thing that what is happening here is whining by some in order to get a chance ( in their opinion) to be number one or in the top 10.

Take Leiden Classical: For months that project was closed to new members and teams while the active teams were allowed to crunch and build upon the credit totals.

It can be argued by any new team that joined after the new accounts were allowed that credits should be backdated since the new teams members had no chance to crunch during the time they were not allowed to join. (For the Record: the reason no new accounts were accepted , were very valid technical reasons) .

For a new team to ask for that , would be asking for a privilege. Any new team knew what was happening and elected to join, asking for a back dating would be whining. And it will be unfair to all the teams that were crunching during that time. (It was not their fault there were technical problems that prevented new accounts.)

So the new teams have one choice : accept the reality of the point standings and crunch or not accept them and not crunch. As the Founder of the newest team at Leiden, we decided to crunch, previous credit granted notwhistanding. If you check the Leiden Standings you will see my team moving up. Better still you will see a lot of work done by the others teams (Including the near Mythical BOINC.BE ) . So Science is winning there.


Lets compare to Rosetta

All teams and participants in Rosetta had the same chance to use the opti clients that were known to exist and that were allowed to be used. To claim now that it was unfair to use them, when their existence was known and when they were allowed , to ask for backdating now is whining.

If the use of the optis was unfair , that issue had to be raised from the beginning, it was not. As a result , people used them in the belief and certainty they were in the right to use them. To ask now for backdating is unfair to those who crunched using a legit way of doing it. It is asking for a privilege for those who did not made themselves available of the tools that were there.

The developers have corrected some of the initial problems and have given the project a much fairer system ( I still believe a completely fair systems is only possible outside of BOINC open source but I digress.) Instead of celebrating, some are still whining asking for privileges . Worst, now they are asking that the developers go back on their word to the participants.

Is more science being done now without the people that left that could be done had those that left stayed ? Of course not as those that are added now, must first fill in the vacuum of work done by those that left . Had those that left staid, more work would have been produced than it is now/

Rosetta's loss is WCG, Leiden and other projects gain.


This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato
ID: 28757 · Rating: 9.9920072216264E-15 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
Profile Biggles
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 22 Sep 05
Posts: 49
Credit: 102,114
RAC: 0
Message 28758 - Posted: 30 Sep 2006, 12:53:09 UTC

Jose, there is a difference. A huge difference. In Leiden Classical, credit was awarded on the basis of work done. That's not happened here on Rosetta. Up until a month ago, credit was awarded on the basis of what you claimed. Could you answer the questions I posted in big red letters (in homage to you, no less), you didn't really answer the questions when you responded to them.

Carl, the devs have given no reason as to why it is impossible to recalculate the credits. I'm a computer scientist with a lot of experience in areas relevant to the project - in other words, I know what I'm talking about with regards to the technical side of things. I'm no biochemist, but I do know computers. If they have all the data it's a trivial process. And even if they've deleted some of the data, as long as they have the results, it's not too difficult to recalculate credit. The only case in which it would be possibly impossible would be if the project doesn't have results anymore. And quite frankly, if they don't have the results then the project science is worthless and we are ALL wasting our time.
ID: 28758 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
Profile dcdc

Send message
Joined: 3 Nov 05
Posts: 1828
Credit: 106,943,056
RAC: 3,252
Message 28759 - Posted: 30 Sep 2006, 12:55:55 UTC - in response to Message 28757.  
Last modified: 30 Sep 2006, 13:44:24 UTC

Carl, for me the issue isn't whether it can or can't be done technically or politically. Its the fact that the reasons those protesting against it initially, and now against its discussion, are not the reasons that (I can't speak for anyone else, so IMO) it was requested for. Jose, you keep stating that the request for backdating was to gain some advantage over your team. It wasn't, and couldn't possibly be so. It would have been based entirely on work done, rather than work done * arbitrary number between -2 and 4, but you keep ignoring the point and stating that it was against your team. E.g.:

Carl I am going to give you an example using another project on why I thing that what is happening here is whining by some in order to get a chance ( in their opinion) to be number one or in the top 10.

Jose, please listen! It has nothing to do with wanting to be any higher up the stats. I wanted backdating because I feel that the stats are somewhat arbirary prior to the system change, and that goes against my nature. We had the opportunity to see how they would have looked had we had a good credit system from the start. I kinda understand why some people were/are opposed to that, but for me the benefits far outweigh the cost (as I don't see a cost because I consider the stats to that point arbirary!).

You have stated many times that it is some attempt to reduce the points your team has. It probably would, but in relation to those teams around you it will probably be negated. However, it would have the positive effect in that the major inaccuracies would be removed. It would have removed the grey area, from Durons getting the same score as the more productive Athlons, and the Core 2 Duos getting far less credit than they deserve etc.

If I were that bothered about being in the top team I'd just join it!

For a new team to ask for that , would be asking for a privilege. Any new team knew what was happening and elected to join, asking for a back dating would be whining. And it will be unfair to all the teams that were crunching during that time. (It was not their fault there were technical problems that prevented new accounts.)

No priveledges were ever asked for. How could they be if the assessment would be on a work done basis?

So the new teams have one choice : accept the reality of the point standings and crunch or not accept them and not crunch.

You've forgotten: not accept them and still crunch ;) Anyone can do what they like with the stats and I'll still crunch Rosetta because I believe in the project's aims.

Lets compare to Rosetta

All teams and participants in Rosetta had the same chance to use the opti clients that were known to exist and that were allowed to be used. To claim now that it was unfair to use them, when their existence was known and when they were allowed , to ask for backdating now is whining.

If the use of the optis was unfair , that issue had to be raised from the beginning, it was not.

It certainly was! It was brought up numerous times when the project started. I remember it being discussed numerous times, including when I first read the boards back in October/November last year! It was always a known flaw in the BOINC system, even before Rosetta existed, but it wasn't a priority to get the project started. The priority was getting an active userbase in place, and rightly so.

I can't give you any links to show you this, because the message board search facility isn't the best! Of course, if the message board search facility is improved in the future, it would be unfair of me to use that improved ability to search previous posts as that isn't the system we are currently posting under, and it would therefore be unfair! (I'm going for a parallel with the current topic there. No? Ok...)
Well here's one discussing flaws in the credit system:
https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/forum_thread.php?id=36
[edit]ok here's a couple:
https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/forum_thread.php?id=349
https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/forum_thread.php?id=1153

As a result , people used them in the belief and certainty they were in the right to use them. To ask now for backdating is unfair to those who crunched using a legit way of doing it. It is asking for a privilege for those who did not made themselves available of the tools that were there.

Some people did use them. My issue with optimised clients was that they increased the grey area. What's the difference between using an optimised client that increases my score by 3x, or editing the xml to increase the benchmark 3x. What about 4x? If an optimised client was released that gave 80x by, for example, using the GPU, would that be fair? Only those that have a fast video card get the high scores though. Rosetta doesn't use the GPU but it doesn't use the SSE3 that the optimised clients base their scores on either.

I think that was the point that Biggles was making in the bold red.

My point was that the optimised clients didn't make things any fairer. If we all ran with the optimised clients, there would have been even bigger disparities between scores and work done.

Is more science being done now without the people that left that could be done had those that left stayed ? Of course not as those that are added now, must first fill in the vacuum of work done by those that left . Had those that left staid, more work would have been produced than it is now/

This isn't necessarily true. There has been a large and continuous influx of new crunchers, including some big DC names such as Agafonov_KY. Of course it would be a massive boost to have the old crunchers return too, but it is personal choice.

Rosetta's loss is WCG, Leiden and other projects gain.

As long as the project is worthwhile, then indeed it is. ;)
ID: 28759 · Rating: 0.99999999999999 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
FluffyChicken
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 1 Nov 05
Posts: 1260
Credit: 369,635
RAC: 0
Message 28760 - Posted: 30 Sep 2006, 13:27:04 UTC
Last modified: 30 Sep 2006, 13:32:44 UTC



Jose,

Could you please stop using the term 'European teams' Not all of the european teams that participate give a damn about the credits and like you keep mentioning about yourself, not all the people complaing represent their teams.

Please just say the team names (if you think it was a team as a whole) or the individuals.

Since what you say is quite disrespectful to the majority of Europeans (of course me and carl live in the UK so we're not classed as European ;-))


I hope all TSC! Russia come across, where are they currently crunching ?
Team mauisun.org
ID: 28760 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
Profile Saenger
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 19 Sep 05
Posts: 271
Credit: 824,883
RAC: 0
Message 28761 - Posted: 30 Sep 2006, 13:32:33 UTC - in response to Message 28756.  

It has been clearly stated that it is impossible, which part of impossible does not translate into German ? ;-)

The "clearly stated" part ;)
It's been once mentioned, no explanation given, that's not my definition of "clearly stated".
ID: 28761 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
Profile Saenger
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 19 Sep 05
Posts: 271
Credit: 824,883
RAC: 0
Message 28763 - Posted: 30 Sep 2006, 13:38:07 UTC - in response to Message 28758.  

And quite frankly, if they don't have the results then the project science is worthless and we are ALL wasting our time.

Not necessarily.
The results DB and the science DB are afaik 2 distinct DBs, as in the former one all this information about credits, CPU used, CPID,.... are included, that can be ditched once it's been moved as the canonical result in the science database. In other projects with scientific redundancy via multiple WU-runs, only one of the results get's moved, the others are lost, but that's probably not the case here. Nevertheless, it's a waste of ressources to take all the community rucksack in the science database, and it's as well a waste of ressources not to purge the community DB from old results.
ID: 28763 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
Profile carl.h
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 28 Dec 05
Posts: 555
Credit: 183,449
RAC: 0
Message 28765 - Posted: 30 Sep 2006, 13:55:45 UTC
Last modified: 30 Sep 2006, 14:39:42 UTC

It's been once mentioned, no explanation given, that's not my definition of "clearly stated".


Twice ( edit nay thrice), once with technical statement from I believe David Kim and once from David Baker clearly stating " There will be no backdating".

From D.Bakers thread in Science
Second, To answer a question which came up on the boards--we will NOT be backdating credit totals. The new system will go into place early next week, adding on to the current totals.


From David Kim https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/forum_thread.php?id=2153

THERE WILL BE NO BACKDATING. THE INFORMATION TO DO SO NO LONGER EXISTS AND EVEN IF IT DID, IT WOULD BE INACCURATE BECAUSE OF HOST MERGING AND LOST DATA DUE TO SERVER ISSUES.
(His capitals not mine)

Ethan too

You're free to hypothesize how things could be done, but please remember this is no longer an issue, it's been decided, and the only thing that will do anything to past scores would be a meteor hitting Seattle :)



I state impossible for those two reasons. I am prepared to believe David Kim and David Baker. If you do not there are connotations to that stance.


DCDC I have no beef with general discussion as such about the issue, it never ends as that though.

Regards your grey areas !

My issue with optimised clients was that they increased the grey area. What's the difference between using an optimised client that increases my score by 3x, or editing the xml to increase the benchmark 3x. What about 4x? If an optimised client was released that gave 80x by, for example, using the GPU, would that be fair? Only those that have a fast video card get the high scores though. Rosetta doesn't use the GPU but it doesn't use the SSE3 that the optimised clients base their scores on either.


The problem was caused,this is a big part of why most Teddies left, by the project Devs not being in control and stating outright what was or was not allowed. It is not upto members to judge, we do not make the rules, although I know Saenger loves democracy, this isn`t one. The people management was an issue I don`t think the project was prepared for. A clear statement was needed at the beginning of the issue...it was fudged as were other things imho.

Regardless of the decision there should have been a clear ruling from above.

The same with threads like this, they can be put to bed but there is no leadership here imho. Maybe you could say D.Baker and D.Kim have already ended it with their above statements.

So it rumbles on and on, people come and look at the Rosetta project and think I aint joining that, it`s a load of wally`s arguing about stuff from last year.


P.S. Fluffy Chicken thanks for that...for a moment there I thought I was going to be a yurpean ! phew ! LOL
Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.
ID: 28765 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
Profile dcdc

Send message
Joined: 3 Nov 05
Posts: 1828
Credit: 106,943,056
RAC: 3,252
Message 28766 - Posted: 30 Sep 2006, 13:56:33 UTC - in response to Message 28760.  

I hope all TSC! Russia come across, where are they currently crunching ?

Me too - that'd probably create a bit of competition for the top! I think they're folding atm - I think it was because they didn't like the standard BOINC credit system, but Agafonov_KY is climbing quite quickly so hopefully more will follow.

Looks like our old friend blackbird is crunching too - I never noticed before :)

The Czech national team is climbing too.
ID: 28766 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
Profile dcdc

Send message
Joined: 3 Nov 05
Posts: 1828
Credit: 106,943,056
RAC: 3,252
Message 28767 - Posted: 30 Sep 2006, 14:00:31 UTC - in response to Message 28765.  

So it rumbles on and on, people come and look at the Rosetta project and think I aint joining that, it`s a load of wally`s arguing about stuff from last year.

hehe

ID: 28767 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
FluffyChicken
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 1 Nov 05
Posts: 1260
Credit: 369,635
RAC: 0
Message 28768 - Posted: 30 Sep 2006, 16:31:09 UTC - in response to Message 28766.  

I hope all TSC! Russia come across, where are they currently crunching ?

Me too - that'd probably create a bit of competition for the top! I think they're folding atm - I think it was because they didn't like the standard BOINC credit system, but Agafonov_KY is climbing quite quickly so hopefully more will follow.

Looks like our old friend blackbird is crunching too - I never noticed before :)

The Czech national team is climbing too.


Hum, maybe blackbird could help with the implementation of coloumn sorting routines they work at for a while for FaDSpy etc. Since no one in Boinc seems to be able to so that.
Nice to see them around :-)

Team mauisun.org
ID: 28768 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
Jose

Send message
Joined: 28 Mar 06
Posts: 820
Credit: 48,297
RAC: 0
Message 28773 - Posted: 30 Sep 2006, 19:19:34 UTC - in response to Message 28759.  
Last modified: 30 Sep 2006, 19:22:58 UTC

Is more science being done now without the people that left that could be done had those that left stayed ? Of course not as those that are added now, must first fill in the vacuum of work done by those that left . Had those that left staid, more work would have been produced than it is now/
This isn't necessarily true. There has been a large and continuous influx of new crunchers, including some big DC names such as Agafonov_KY. Of course it would be a massive boost to have the old crunchers return too, but it is personal choice.


So per your own admission, there has beebn a loss of work. In tour own words : a massive boost that is not happening as the oldcrunchers are out and will not return.

Rosetta's loss is WCG, Leiden and other projects gain.

As long as the project is worthwhile, then indeed it is. ;)


What determines a project's worthiness?



To Fluffy: I sould have used some in front of the word European . Not all europeans are as obtuse as some Europeans are.

No apologies are due to you and Carl: you are not Europeans, you are Britts :) .


And to Tony: I asked my dog to smell my feet. Dog committed suicide asfter smelling. Does that mean that tehy stink? :)

This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato
ID: 28773 · Rating: -2 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
Ananas

Send message
Joined: 1 Jan 06
Posts: 232
Credit: 752,471
RAC: 0
Message 28790 - Posted: 1 Oct 2006, 13:29:39 UTC

This is neither a national nor a team issue, it's just an issue of different ideas about fairness. I highly doubt that any country can claim to have the one and only justice (even though some politicians do - but we're not here for political weirdness)
ID: 28790 · Rating: 0.99999999999998 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
Jose

Send message
Joined: 28 Mar 06
Posts: 820
Credit: 48,297
RAC: 0
Message 28801 - Posted: 2 Oct 2006, 3:49:28 UTC - in response to Message 28790.  

This is neither a national nor a team issue, it's just an issue of different ideas about fairness. I highly doubt that any country can claim to have the one and only justice (even though some politicians do - but we're not here for political weirdness)



This thread has become as productive as trying to agree if it is Ketchup or Catsup the name of the condiment you place over Hot Dogs.
This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato
ID: 28801 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
Profile River~~
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 15 Dec 05
Posts: 761
Credit: 285,578
RAC: 0
Message 28803 - Posted: 2 Oct 2006, 4:48:02 UTC - in response to Message 28801.  


This thread has become as productive as trying to agree if it is Ketchup or Catsup the name of the condiment you place over Hot Dogs.


No, it's mustard.
ID: 28803 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
Jose

Send message
Joined: 28 Mar 06
Posts: 820
Credit: 48,297
RAC: 0
Message 28814 - Posted: 2 Oct 2006, 15:42:10 UTC - in response to Message 28803.  
Last modified: 2 Oct 2006, 16:25:12 UTC


This thread has become as productive as trying to agree if it is Ketchup or Catsup the name of the condiment you place over Hot Dogs.


No, it's mustard.


This is an example of why threads get messy: People just dont read what is posted . :)

River~ I did not ask what you put on a Hot Dog; I asked what the name : Ketshup or Catsup?

This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato
ID: 28814 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
Profile Saenger
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 19 Sep 05
Posts: 271
Credit: 824,883
RAC: 0
Message 28815 - Posted: 2 Oct 2006, 16:28:44 UTC - in response to Message 28801.  

This thread has become as productive as trying to agree if it is Ketchup or Catsup the name of the condiment you place over Hot Dogs.

Ketjap (sounds alike, but is dutch for soya souce)
In german and dutch it's Ketchup, btw.
ID: 28815 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
Jose

Send message
Joined: 28 Mar 06
Posts: 820
Credit: 48,297
RAC: 0
Message 28822 - Posted: 2 Oct 2006, 19:00:30 UTC - in response to Message 28815.  

This thread has become as productive as trying to agree if it is Ketchup or Catsup the name of the condiment you place over Hot Dogs.

Ketjap (sounds alike, but is dutch for soya souce)
In german and dutch it's Ketchup, btw.



See another example of miscommunication that can lead to flames: I did not ask for the German or Dutch word? I wrote a plain question in English so, the answer has to be referenceable to the language I wrote in.

And I hope that by know people are starting to realize my point: if a simple question about a simple condiment written in plain English can be misread, misinterpreted so people go all over the board answering what was not asked about; Guess what happens when the comments and or questions posited ar about a charged issue like credits.

Thanks be to G-d there is no relationship between Catsup or Ketchup ( which are both valid names for the same condiment in English) and credits. Had it been , there would have been a major flame war by now. :)

This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato
ID: 28822 · Rating: -2 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
FluffyChicken
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 1 Nov 05
Posts: 1260
Credit: 369,635
RAC: 0
Message 28853 - Posted: 3 Oct 2006, 8:07:58 UTC - in response to Message 28822.  

This thread has become as productive as trying to agree if it is Ketchup or Catsup the name of the condiment you place over Hot Dogs.

Ketjap (sounds alike, but is dutch for soya souce)
In german and dutch it's Ketchup, btw.



See another example of miscommunication that can lead to flames: I did not ask for the German or Dutch word? I wrote a plain question in English so, the answer has to be referenceable to the language I wrote in.

And I hope that by know people are starting to realize my point: if a simple question about a simple condiment written in plain English can be misread, misinterpreted so people go all over the board answering what was not asked about; Guess what happens when the comments and or questions posited ar about a charged issue like credits.

Thanks be to G-d there is no relationship between Catsup or Ketchup ( which are both valid names for the same condiment in English) and credits. Had it been , there would have been a major flame war by now. :)


Actually you did not ask a question at all. So people are just giving an opinion on your statment.


P.S. Actually in English (true english, it is Ketchup or Red Sauce. Yours is just a regional language of American English ;-))
Team mauisun.org
ID: 28853 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
Jose

Send message
Joined: 28 Mar 06
Posts: 820
Credit: 48,297
RAC: 0
Message 28856 - Posted: 3 Oct 2006, 9:58:50 UTC - in response to Message 28853.  
Last modified: 3 Oct 2006, 10:00:38 UTC

This thread has become as productive as trying to agree if it is Ketchup or Catsup the name of the condiment you place over Hot Dogs.

Ketjap (sounds alike, but is dutch for soya souce)
In german and dutch it's Ketchup, btw.



See another example of miscommunication that can lead to flames: I did not ask for the German or Dutch word? I wrote a plain question in English so, the answer has to be referenceable to the language I wrote in.

And I hope that by know people are starting to realize my point: if a simple question about a simple condiment written in plain English can be misread, misinterpreted so people go all over the board answering what was not asked about; Guess what happens when the comments and or questions posited ar about a charged issue like credits.

Thanks be to G-d there is no relationship between Catsup or Ketchup ( which are both valid names for the same condiment in English) and credits. Had it been , there would have been a major flame war by now. :)


Actually you did not ask a question at all. So people are just giving an opinion on your statement.


P.S. Actually in English (true english, it is Ketchup or Red Sauce. Yours is just a regional language of American English ;-))





So now an answer has to be given to the PS...of course in Red



A little article for your edification and instruction...

KETCHUP VERSUS CATSUP
[Q] From Suzanne: “Why is ketchup also called catsup?”

[A] Ketchup was one of the earliest names given to this condiment, so spelled in Charles Lockyer’s book of 1711, An Account of the Trade in India: “Soy comes in Tubbs from Jappan, and the best Ketchup from Tonquin; yet good of both sorts are made and sold very cheap in China”. Nobody seems quite sure where it comes from, and I won’t bore you with a long disquisition concerning the scholarly debate on the matter, which is reflected in the varied origins given in major dictionaries. It’s likely to be from a Chinese dialect, imported into English through Malay. The original was a kind of fish sauce, though the modern Malay and Indonesian version, with the closely related name kecap, is a sweet soy sauce.

Like their Eastern forerunners, Western ketchups were dipping sauces. I’m told the first ketchup recipe appeared in Elizabeth Smith’s book The Compleat Housewife of 1727 and that it included anchovies, shallots, vinegar, white wine, sweet spices (cloves, ginger, mace, nutmeg), pepper and lemon peel. Not a tomato in sight, you will note—tomato ketchup was not introduced until about a century later, in the US, and caught on only slowly. It was more usual to base the condiment on mushrooms, or sometimes walnuts.

The confusion about names started even before Charles Lockyer wrote about it, since there is an entry dated 1690 in the Dictionary of the Canting Crew which gives it as catchup, which is another Anglicisation of the original Eastern term. Catchup was used much more in North America than in Britain: it was still common in the middle years of the nineteenth century, as in a story in Scribner’s Magazine in 1859: “I do not object to take a few slices of cold boiled ham ... with a little mushroom catchup, some Worcester sauce, and a pickle or so”. Indeed, catchup continued to appear in American works for some decades and is still to be found on occasion.

There were lots of other spellings, too, of which catsup is the best known, a modification of catchup. You can blame Jonathan Swift for it if you like, since he used it first in 1730: “And, for our home-bred British cheer, Botargo, catsup, and caveer”. [Caveer is caviar; botargo is a fish-based relish made of the roe of the mullet or tunny.] That form was also once common in the US but is much less so these days, at least on bottle labels: all the big US manufacturers now call their product ketchup.


And the a nasty comment would follow: something like the question was implied...cant you think?

We get a moderator in...and voila!!! We have us a flame war!!!!!!

:) :) :)
This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato
ID: 28856 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive    Reply Quote
Previous · 1 . . . 7 · 8 · 9 · 10 · 11 · Next

Message boards : Number crunching : Closed to all, but those with stinky feet



©2022 University of Washington
https://www.bakerlab.org