The SETI thing was over credits?

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Brandon

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Message 18571 - Posted: 13 Jun 2006, 16:00:27 UTC

I am just satisfied that my spare cycles are going towards research for a cure. It's nice to see some sort of measurement of what you have contributed .. but I am just elated something like this even exists. Credits are just too abstract. Knowing I am part of 40 Teraflops is where it's at !!! (:
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Message 18578 - Posted: 13 Jun 2006, 17:30:14 UTC

[caution: sarcasm ahead] Yea, let's do all the work THREE TIMES so we can be SURE we get the credits right!

Rosetta needs models crunched, the results are easily verified. The results a all meaningful, but only very few will report a great looking model found. If you claim you found a great model, the project can prove it by rerunning with the same parameters your PC used to find it.

You would THINK that perhaps it would be similar at SETI. MOST of the results returned to SETI are saying "nothing found"... you would THINK that would be sufficient. But they PROVE nothing was found three times! GREAT use of electricity, don't ya think?

And let's say you DO find a signal. Great! We're not alone... NOW what are you going to do? Is ET going to immediately stop over with disease cures? He's 100 light years away! In the meantime mankind suffers a pandemic and the science isn't there to devise a cure in time.

Better hedge your bets! Crunch Rosetta too!
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Message 18579 - Posted: 13 Jun 2006, 17:55:06 UTC - in response to Message 18578.  

snip, snip
Better hedge your bets! Crunch Rosetta too!


Better yet, crunch Rosetta only!
dag
--Finding aliens is cool, but understanding the structure of proteins is useful.
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Astro
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Message 18590 - Posted: 13 Jun 2006, 20:39:12 UTC
Last modified: 13 Jun 2006, 20:45:10 UTC

I think a bit more respect for Seti is due it. If it weren't for the wildly popular Seti. There'd be NO rosetta or 30 other projects to choose from.

By the later 1990's Seti had more users than work it could collect. So, instead of sending "NO work" messages, they just sent out extra copies of the same Work Unit (WU)(by the end of Classic it was sending of average of between 6 – 9 duplicates). Dr. Anderson (from Seti) saw the huge waste of processor time and thought of a better way. He called this Boinc (the Berkeley Open Infrastructure for Network Computing). A multi-project platform where cash strapped projects could get a slice of this HUGE processor pie for FREE. Everything about boinc is designed to be FREE to projects, from the software itself to the message board you're using, to well...Everything.

Since Seti already has enough CPU power, he's sharing that with other science projects. The Equipment of seti was designed to handle 1 Million Results/day (250,000 WUs, since the initial issue rate is FOUR). It only needs TWO results (of the four)returned that match strongly to validate the science. It will probably be entertaining reducing the issue rate to 3, but four was picked, NOT just for science reasons, but to ensure users got their credits faster. Remember, they have LOADS of CPUs available, and they don't examine the results in "real time" so getting the results back fast isn't a priority as it is for some projects (like LHC and Rosetta). Since December Seti(under Boinc) was once again, doing all the work that could be collected. I’m not sure how this new Seti Enhanced is affecting it, but time will tell. If the past is any indicator, they’ll be right back up to full capacity probably quicker than people think, even though they’ve double the sensitivity of the search (resulting in increased crunch times/less work units done per day).

So tip your hat, and say thanks Seti for allowing Rosetta to exist.

That said, I think Rosetta is a worth project also, and I crunch for them for personal reasons (of which some of you are aware).

tony

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Brandon

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Message 18592 - Posted: 13 Jun 2006, 21:19:41 UTC - in response to Message 18590.  


So tip your hat, and say thanks Seti for allowing Rosetta to exist.


Thanks SETI !!! (:
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Message 18594 - Posted: 13 Jun 2006, 21:55:47 UTC

Tony, I must agree, were it not for SETI and BOINC I would not be ABLE to crunch Rosetta. I just think there were better ways to go about handling things. It basically releates to the level of communication about what was really going on there, and how my electric bill was really being used.

Although I do agree that if a project runs out of WUs, then users will be upset. Especially someone that only gets a chance once a week or so to access a machine and dial up to the net. If during that brief window there is no work, they go a week without crunching. So they had to do SOMEthing.

BOINC is certainly improved over classic SETI in numerous ways. Among those, being able to chose your projects. And providing a prototype for use by folks like the Baker Lab to jumpstart their DC endeavors.

I love what they've accomplished. And I know they have worked themselves to the bone and I certainly respect that. I just find I no longer believe in the SETI mission. We'll answer the "Are we alone" question soon enough. I prefer to pursue the "Is there a cure?" question.
If having a DC project with BOINC is of interest to you, with volunteer or cloud computing resources, but have no time for the BOINC learning curve,
use a hosting service that understands BOINC projects: http://DeepSci.com
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Message 18595 - Posted: 13 Jun 2006, 22:08:00 UTC
Last modified: 13 Jun 2006, 22:08:53 UTC

Retraction

I was wrong, when I used "By the later 1990's ". Classic started around May 1999, so I meant to say early 2K, like 2001/2 range. I don't know the exact date it reached capacity.

I guess I needed that nap to see this error.

tony
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Message 18599 - Posted: 13 Jun 2006, 23:29:10 UTC

I know that many folks were tweaked about credits. I love the credits since it fuels my competitive nature, but it goes hand in hand with the pleasure I get from being able to contribute to the greater good. Both are good for me. '

I left SETI (except for one core crunching on 10% priority) after many years of dedicated crunching because of the evil feel in the forums and the lack of interest the devs took in that. I felt that since the community supported the effort, the devs should take a very active interest in the health of that community. They did not and, in fact, made it clear that they wanted to be divorced for the most part in the maintenance of a healthy and clean forum environment. By the time moderators were required to take a more active role in cleaning things up, they were forced to such extreme action that they became victims of abuse themselves.

I was reminded of "The Dog Whisperer" and "Supernanny" episodes where the dogs and kids were allowed to run free for so long that when "rules, boundaries and limitations" (Cesar's words) are finally introduced, the dogs and kids go nuts with tantrums trying to regain the old status quo. Adults ahving tantrums about rules for decent conduct made it clear to me that I had better places to be and more worthy projects to dedicate my resources to.

Jim

Hey Judge Gorgeous, may I please the court?
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Message 18600 - Posted: 14 Jun 2006, 0:24:45 UTC

I must say that I'm not here to bash SETI.

I give credit where credit is due. The SETI staff not only invented the Idea of volunteer DC, but they proved it could work.

That said; I stopped crunching for SETI (Not for credits or cheating issues) because of the shape the message boards got into. One never really felt confident in asking questions or felt very welcome by the community of volunteers.

Only now is there some air of civility emerging, but the atmosphere is still very charged over there.

Here, even the single PC user gets a warm welcome by all of the computer farm owners who can get RAC's over 2000. And I get a clear picture as to what my contribution is. Here you never feel small with a single machine.
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Message 18609 - Posted: 14 Jun 2006, 3:10:20 UTC - in response to Message 18600.  

I must say that I'm not here to bash SETI.

I give credit where credit is due. The SETI staff not only invented the Idea of volunteer DC, but they proved it could work.

That said; I stopped crunching for SETI (Not for credits or cheating issues) because of the shape the message boards got into. One never really felt confident in asking questions or felt very welcome by the community of volunteers.

Only now is there some air of civility emerging, but the atmosphere is still very charged over there.

Here, even the single PC user gets a warm welcome by all of the computer farm owners who can get RAC's over 2000. And I get a clear picture as to what my contribution is. Here you never feel small with a single machine.

Thank you for the kind words. SETI has fostered a rather unique and historic way to bring basic science research to the masses. But each project is unique and each has it's own issues to address.

The Rosetta project team tries very hard to support all contributers, large or small. The user community here is full of helpful people who make the experience better for everyone as well. Many of the more prominent among them have already posted in this thread. Their contributions to the project have not gone unnoticed by David Baker and David Kim either. Also don't forget the system admin staff working totally out of view of the wider user community without whom the servers would not run. Currently the project is improving daily thank in no small part to the users who are willing to suffer the issues first in Ralph so the Rosetta users will have a better experience.

But most importantly it is thanks to all of you, the users, that this project is moving in a positive direction.

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Message boards : Number crunching : The SETI thing was over credits?



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