Posts by CZ

1) Message boards : Rosetta@home Science : Is The Rosetta Project Non-Profit ? (Message 76964)
Posted 6 Jul 2014 by CZ
Post:
Seems like a profit making machine to me...


Are you confusing profit with income?


No - I may not be a scientist (I did one year of science at university but found the career prospects and pay not to my liking) - but I am a financial consultant and advisor at a major bank with responsibilities which include making daily decisions involving transactions worth millions of dollars.

I specialise in investments, risk management, taxation planning, financial statement analysis, statistical analysis/inference, modelling and forecasting, in short what makes a good investment and what doesn't.

If there's one thing I have learned during my time working in the finance industry is that even a few thousand dollars is a powerful motivator for many individuals, institutions, or "charities", to make them walk a very thin line between what is legal and what isn't (and I'm not even going to touch on the ethical aspect of these transactions and business practices).

The devil is always in the detail, and to dissect the Rosetta Project in detail will take a very long time - but if one is willing to follow the long paper trail it is usually possible to get a very accurate understanding of the company/institute/charity and it's financial operations and financial position, or at the very least you can make an informed estimate of the "cost" of investing in an enterprise (commercial or one spun off by a non-profit one) - be it an investment of time (what is called the "opportunity cost") or a financial investment.

From what I have read so far, I have stopped my BOINC client from accepting any more Rosetta work units, until I get to the bottom of this money making machine that is called the University of Washington's Center for Commercialisation (C4C) http://depts.washington.edu/uwc4c/ and the patents situation.
2) Message boards : Rosetta@home Science : Is The Rosetta Project Non-Profit ? (Message 76958)
Posted 5 Jul 2014 by CZ
Post:
Searching the homepage for the same word answers your question. Follow the "donate" link from the homepage for specifics on the non-profit status and ways you can directly contribute financially as well.

Dr. Baker has stated numerous times on the boards that the research is made public. There are links to many papers published by BakerLab that confirm that as well.

Related threads:
Concerns: Will someone (i.e. BigPharma) make money out of my CPU time?
Unanswered quetions about rosetta@home
Solid answer needed, for who do we do this?


Seems like a profit making machine to me http://depts.washington.edu/uwc4c/ and http://c4c.uwc4c.com/express_license_technologies/rosetta

From the University of Washington's Center For Commercialisation (C4C):
"As you read this, UW researchers in hundreds of labs are making extraordinary innovations. As America’s number one federally funded public research university, UW is producing innovations that have the power to change the world—from biofuel alternatives, to more effective treatments for Alzheimer’s disease and brain cancer, to purification technology for drinking water in the developing world. C4C is committed to getting these research outcomes into products, services, therapies, diagnostics, and cures to where they can impact millions of people.

Since 2005, Center For Commercialisation has supported the commercialization of more than 100 projects, provided comprehensive mentoring and over $4 million in grants, and helped spin out new companies. These include, Fate Therapeutics, EnerG2, MicroGREEN Polymers, and Farecast." http://depts.washington.edu/uwc4c/about-c4c/

Some Recent Case Studies from the above page link http://depts.washington.edu/uwc4c/about-c4c/success-stories/

And finally, patents applied for (in 2012) 409, granted patents that year 69 (most of these were in the field of medicine) http://depts.washington.edu/uwc4c/about-c4c/fast-facts/

Reading through the University of Washington's Center For Commercialisation website makes it hard to support that their work is non-profit. Just because information is made public doesn't make it non profit - patents are publicly accessible by anyone, but they protect the intellectual property of the institution or lab for commercial/business purposes.
3) Message boards : Rosetta@home Science : Is The Rosetta Project Non-Profit ? (Message 76954)
Posted 4 Jul 2014 by CZ
Post:
Hi

I was just wandering if ANY of my volunteered PC/CPU/Electricity (doing work for Rosetta@home) contributes in any way to a University's, Laboratory's, or other scientific institution's profits or profit making potential.

It is well known that most scientific breakthroughs or progress in medicine or pharmacology these days are PATENTED (or protected by intellectual property rights in other ways) especially when it relates to new medicines where a pharmaceutical company (after paying royalties to a third party - such as a university department/laboratory/etc) makes billions of dollars simply by applying basic science discoveries to their new branded medicines.

Can any one provide me with some information on this issue, because I performed a search through the Rosetta Forums using the term "profit" and it returned no results - has no one ever asked this question?

Does anyone know of a case where our volunteered CPU time is used for business (rather than altruistic) purposes by the Rosetta Project ?

If we are contributing to the bottom line of a company/lab/university then I think we all have the right to know about it - and to stop our contribution to such projects if we decide we are being taken advantage of.

Thank you.
4) Message boards : Number crunching : ROSETTA MUST ENABLE GPU UNITS (Message 76925)
Posted 30 Jun 2014 by CZ
Post:
Deliberate falsification of data is perhaps a risk, but there are several factors that would count against it ...


and

There are 150 developers in 23 universities and laboratories working on various aspects of the coding (Rosetta Commons). So, the idea has been considered from many many perspectives. And, as you quoted, some serious efforts have been made to utilize GPUs.

Noone is dismissing the value of GPU to computing. And with more and more on-chip memory their versatility improves. But even those making and selling GPUs do not attempt to argue that computing is all just ones and zeros, and therefore GPUs should be used for everything. They have a specific subset of compute tasks that they do very very well... such as graphics. But the "GP" does not stand for "General Purpose".

In past posts I have likened the comparison between CPU and GPU as being similar to the difference between a school bus and a race car. The race car's acceleration and top speed are certainly superior, but that doesn't mean it can be used effectively to bring all of the children to school if that is the task at-hand.


Thank you for your feedback, I feel that reasonable consideration has been given to the GPU processing issue (for whatever my opinion is worth).

I am now happy again to support Rosetta@home with my CPU time (whether or not GPU processing is enabled).

I wish the scientists, and all involved in the project, the best of luck - I feel the project is one of the most worthwhile of all scientific efforts in the distributed computing space, and I am now again happy to maximise my computing efforts to the tasks Rosetta@home has set for our CPUs.
5) Message boards : Number crunching : ROSETTA MUST ENABLE GPU UNITS (Message 76919)
Posted 29 Jun 2014 by CZ
Post:


I assume that when these work units are validated (by another user)...


To maximise the search of the billions of possible results there is no cross-validation of tasks in Rosetta. Instead if several results return low energy points with a similar structure the scientists conduct the more detailed calculation in that area. The second set of results then provide more detailed answers to either validate or discount the original results.


Wow - then how can they be sure people are not abusing the system and claim credit for WUs not performed?

All one would need to do is to send back a whole heap of fabricated results back to the Rosetta server where the energy levels were never low enough to be investigated and validated - no real work would need to be performed on the units at all.

Worse still - IF this happened, then the whole Rosetta science project could be affected by a whole heap of false negatives.
6) Message boards : Number crunching : ROSETTA MUST ENABLE GPU UNITS (Message 76916)
Posted 29 Jun 2014 by CZ
Post:


The Rosetta scientists seem to review new advances in processor technology every couple of years. At the last review it was found that the technology will not be able to give the perforamce that Rosetta needs.


Until they publish what steps they have taken to investigate the possibility of porting their code (or portions of it) to CUDA or OpenCL and the reasons for concluding that it's impossible, I will tend to believe they simply have come to the conclusion that they have enough people already doing the work on CPUs - why should we bother spending time and money on developing and testing new code that may or may not work on a GPU.

At the machine level it is all processed in binary language of ones and zeros, the GPU can perform these calculations much faster than CPUs, the whole problem lies in developing higher level language code to do this, but ATI and NVidia provide tons of resources for developers to help optimise applications for GPUs, I bet the Rosetta team haven't even bothered to have a good look at basic tools available to them such as "Performance analysis tools are also great for identifying performance bottlenecks in your CPU code that can be eliminated by moving computationally intensive algorithms to the GPU" https://developer.nvidia.com/performance-analysis-tools

The code for CPU and GPU processing appears similar enough http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda-parallel-computing-platform.html

There are many tools available to Rosetta project developers (just from NVidia alone): https://developer.nvidia.com/cuda-zone and https://developer.nvidia.com/cuda-tools-ecosystem.

I for one am willing to trust the word of the scientists who have investigated the technology and discounted it, over the long stream of people who have only researched performance statistics on the internet


Some posts from the Rosetta team about GPU processing and how it applies to the Rosetta project:

22nd of May 2013 - Lucas from Baker Lab "GPU computing is much closer to reality for Rosetta, as it is completely routine for many other compute tasks. There is actually some preliminary work on this for Rosetta from a couple of developers as many tasks are amenable to GPU algorithms. It is just preliminary, proof-of-concept, and the fact is that as an academic group there is not a ton of man-power around to devote to the coding task of fully implementing this work. Could happen soon though" http://boinc.bakerlab.org/forum_thread.php?id=6185&nowrap=true#75653

12th of June 2013 - "Hi, I'm one of the rosetta devs Lucas mentioned above. Every time I post on forums I seem to get myself in trouble (probably because I do thinks like show people slides, which I'm doing again... I never learn...), so please be nice!

Rosetta for GPU in general is pretty tough for a few reasons, mainly that the it's tough to write large-general purpose GPU code -- and calculations we do in rosetta-land are incredibly diverse. A while back I'd figured out how to do a "refold," one of many basic underpinning of rosetta modeling, efficiently on the GPU. Here's a link to some slides (towards the end, I think) for the curious.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6qkp6spzpz0cfs4/11_08_13_GPU.pdf

To date, we've had only one "application" of GPU calculations that I'm aware of, doing some entropic analysis of the effect of varying the size of floppy "linkers" attaching large protein components together. Here's some slides going over that:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9gs20q4kaa0e8wp/12_04_05_GM_pub.pdf

I should note that the task in the above slides is very very simple and special-purpose... for that exact purpose the GPU turned out to work pretty well, but adapting the code to do more proved difficult enough that I'm not personally using it anymore. I've done similar tasks using CPU-based algorithms more recently and have gotten close to the GPU performance through various computational trickery which is impossible on current GPUs.

12th of June 2013 (another thread) - "We are primarily engaged in a few tasks here, all of which we use boinc for:
1) Making better algorithms to predict structures. Mod.Sense pointed this out. Much of the use of boinc is to test out variants of algorithms, totally new ideas, etc.
2) Improving the scoring functions in those algorithms. This gets pretty technical, but you can think of Rosetta software as a search algorithm -- it needs to look around (sampling) and it needs to evaluate what it finds (scoring). Boinc is used to test new methods of scoring, aka new ways to evaluate structures. These methods help structure prediction (1, above) and sequence design (3) below.
3) Design of new proteins for new tasks. This is the inverse of problem (1) where we know the sequence and are predicting the structure. Here we have a structure, or multiple structure ideas, in mind and we want to design a protein that takes on that structure. The structure could be an influenza binder, or a new enzyme to treat a disease. We run Rosetta algorithms to design new sequences for a given structure, and often run that on boinc.
4) When we make a new design, how do we know that it will look the way we want it too? Well, we put it back in to step (1) on boinc, to test if it is at least self-consistent. If boinc doesn't give us back the structure we are trying to make, we might be in trouble.

The majority of folks here in the lab are working on (3) and some are doing (4), and many of us use boinc as a vital tool to make design and design evaluation possible" http://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/forum_thread.php?id=5185&nowrap=true#75755

26th June 2014 - "boboviz to answer your question: GPU code for Rosetta is not being actively pursued in our lab. Will posted lots of stuff about his work for GPUs a few days ago, but as he says what he did ends up being very specialized and is not of general use. We are pursuing lots of other algorithm improvements, including Will's work, that use standard CPUs and we think that in many cases we are more limited by our ability to come up with correct and fast algorithms than we are by anything that could be solved with a GPU. That being said, rosettaathome is an incredibly powerful tool for us to develop new algorithms with, and many of us are working on new algorithm development" http://boinc.bakerlab.org/forum_thread.php?id=6185&nowrap=true#75809


In the May 2013 post they say GPU is a real possibility (and that it is routine in other projects) but from the last post on the 26th of June 2014 it is clear that they are not even looking into possibilities of GPU processing for the Rosetta project (because it would appear they have enough trouble working on the CPU code and developing new algorithms for the CPU).
7) Message boards : Number crunching : ROSETTA MUST ENABLE GPU UNITS (Message 76911)
Posted 29 Jun 2014 by CZ
Post:

and that to achieve those Tflops it may only benefit a specific class of problems where the processing happens only within the GPU registers. For memory intensive applications that has 1000s of competing synchronizing locks this may severely degrade an app even if an attempt is done to re-code the app for a GPU. i.e. it may not benefit from the use of a GPU at all.

--------------
what could be said is that not all computational payloads can be optimized or can even benefit from the likes of CPU or GPU specific features.

...
...
...

However rosetta development teams can indeed look into possible use of CPU vectorized features or GPU vectorised features for specific areas that can benefit from those.


You have hit the nail on the head right there. Rosetta tasks can take anything from 100MB to 1,000MB+ per core to process. There is no way the current generation of GPUs can provide that much dedicated memory per core.


All the dedicated/discrete (not the ones that come with the motherboard) GPUs these days come with at least 1GB of dedicated graphics memory - even the cheapest ones for $30 or so.
8) Message boards : Number crunching : ROSETTA MUST ENABLE GPU UNITS (Message 76896)
Posted 28 Jun 2014 by CZ
Post:
There is a Rosetta setting for preferred WU runtime. Default is 3hrs. Max is 24hrs. If a shorter runtime per WU would be preferable, you do have the option of running less models per WU and reporting them back on a shorter schedule.


Thanks, it seems to be working for me (I set my target CPU run time to 4 hours), but the WUs I now receive appear to be "fragmented" (or divided).

I assume that when these work units are validated (by another user) they would be compared to results returned by users who have completed the entire WU, or those who have returned the same WU "fragment" as me.

So I imagine running either the complete (24 hour long) or the default length WUs would be preferable ?

If so, is the default length still 3 hours ? - because when I attached Rosetta (without specifying WU length) to my default BOINC installation, I was receiving the 24 hour long WUs, not the 3 hour WUs (which you say are the default length).

Long story short, does the length of WUs set in my Rosetta preferences affect the efficiency with which the WUs are processed or validated, or does it affect or negatively impact the project or it's users if "non-default" or shorter work units are processed (for example in amount of credit granted, or length of time between WU report time and validation)?

Thanks.
9) Message boards : Number crunching : ROSETTA MUST ENABLE GPU UNITS (Message 76891)
Posted 27 Jun 2014 by CZ
Post:
I just set the Rosetta WU to 4 hours in preferences


It is still sending me 24 hour long units - I have had to abort those units and go back to preferences to make sure it was still set to target CPU time to 4 hours (did it twice in the last 15 minutes).

Every time I "Update" the Rosetta project in BOINC I keep getting 24 hour long units, I have aborted all 24 hour long units and stopped my client from accepting new work units from Rosetta.

I will check tomorrow that my preferences are still set to 4 hours in the Rosetta preferences, then allow new work units for Rosetta - if they still send me 24 hour long units I will have to reconsider my participation because I will have lost confidence in the competence of the project leaders (I can understand porting code over to GPU is difficult, but making sure my preferences are correctly applied can't be that difficult).


Judging from the timings of your posts I am guessing that you are judging the length of the task from the estimated end time your client is giving you. That isn't a good way to measure, as the client bases its estimates on recent history. As your recent tasks have been taking 24 hours your client estimates any new ones will take 24 hours too.

If you let a new Rosetta task run with your 4 hour preference you should see it generate as many decoys as possible within 4 hours and then finish the last decoy it was working on at the 4 hour mark. This may mean your task may last until 4.5 or 5 hours if the last decoy takes a long time to generate.

If the final decoy takes an extremely long time to generate the watchdog process will step in, terminate the final decoy and report the results of the completed decoys to the project. In these exceptional cases a couple more hours may be added to the run time, so perhaps 6 or 7 hours (the watchdog works on a percentage of your prefered run time, though I can't remember the exact figure).

If you are still having trouble try reporting again here. These things usually turn out to have a simple explanation and are often within the user's control (such as forgetting to click a particular tick box). It has happened to me and many other contributors of this forum at one time or another.


Thanks, that makes sense, I will allow new WUs and see what happens ...
10) Message boards : Number crunching : ROSETTA MUST ENABLE GPU UNITS (Message 76883)
Posted 26 Jun 2014 by CZ
Post:
I just set the Rosetta WU to 4 hours in preferences


It is still sending me 24 hour long units - I have had to abort those units and go back to preferences to make sure it was still set to target CPU time to 4 hours (did it twice in the last 15 minutes).

Every time I "Update" the Rosetta project in BOINC I keep getting 24 hour long units, I have aborted all 24 hour long units and stopped my client from accepting new work units from Rosetta.

I will check tomorrow that my preferences are still set to 4 hours in the Rosetta preferences, then allow new work units for Rosetta - if they still send me 24 hour long units I will have to reconsider my participation because I will have lost confidence in the competence of the project leaders (I can understand porting code over to GPU is difficult, but making sure my preferences are correctly applied can't be that difficult).
11) Message boards : Number crunching : ROSETTA MUST ENABLE GPU UNITS (Message 76882)
Posted 26 Jun 2014 by CZ
Post:
Uh, my nickname is boboviz. Veneto is my region of Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneto). This is tipical use in Boinc Italy Team to create regional group.


Thanks for the feedback boboviz and Mod.Sense.

I decided to stay with Rosetta - I am here for the cause not the glory.

I just set the Rosetta WU to 4 hours in preferences (it defaulted to 24 hours on my PC for some reason - that was what was annoying me and making me think Rosetta was inefficient).

While I slowly crunch Rosetta WUs on my CPU, I still hope they can enable GPU processing some time in the future though ...
12) Message boards : Number crunching : ROSETTA MUST ENABLE GPU UNITS (Message 76880)
Posted 26 Jun 2014 by CZ
Post:

In your profile, you can edit the cpu run time...


I'm well aware of that, but the fact remains it takes about a day to process one Rosetta work unit/core - if I set it to use 25% of CPU it will just take 4 times longer (but still use up about a day of continuous run time).

Thanks for your feedback VENETO, and keep up the good work, but I'm outta here ...


That isn't what they meant. There is a Rosetta setting for preferred WU runtime. Default is 3hrs. Max is 24hrs. If a shorter runtime per WU would be preferable, you do have the option of running less models per WU and reporting them back on a shorter schedule.


Oh OK, I'll give that a go.

My Rosetta WUs always ran at 24 hours (and I installed BOINC and all projects with default settings). I thought Rosetta was unable or unwilling to make their WU more efficient (and that's why they took so long - and hence my argument for GPU processing).

What I do find curious though, is that a forum moderator and project administrator actually has no RAC and no "Credit" for Rosetta@Home at all - isn't that like saying "do what I say, not what I do"?

;-)
13) Message boards : Number crunching : ROSETTA MUST ENABLE GPU UNITS (Message 76877)
Posted 25 Jun 2014 by CZ
Post:
No, you're not wasting time here. Rosetta is one of the most prolific boinc project with over 100 publications. But
1) Not all the code/algorithm can "pass on gpu".
2) If the code can pass, you have to consider the performances.
3) One year ago, rosetta team publish 2 pdf of gpu test/benchmark and seem that actual gpu cannot give what developers want.
Here: http://boinc.bakerlab.org/forum_thread.php?id=6185&nowrap=true#75756


Thanks for your reply - it seems you raised this question in the thread you linked.

However, the replies you got in reply to why they won't enable GPU is basically "we are not doing it because it's too hard", the last reply from the project scientists is that they are not even trying to port it to GPUs anymore (that was in 2013).

I have stopped my project from accepting any more tasks from them if they can't be bothered, then neither can I - my CPU time can be better used in the "Mapping Cancer Markers" project for the World Community Grid (they take less than two hours per task) and the project is just as worthy.

SIMAP also did protein folding and their work units were only about an hour long - I feel that Rosetta is not even trying to make the best use of my donated PC time by enabling GPU processing so why should I bother?

Other people will no doubt continue to support this project, but I have been using BOINC on and off for years and I can see Rosetta being MUCH less popular than it used to be - there are other projects (much less worthy) who have GPU crunchers churning out tons of GFLOPS for them because they get more "credit" for their time.

This is just purely egotistical credit where GPU crunchers compete for the highest RAC, rather than doing work for a project based on it's scientific merit.

It is this competitive drive of younger users with powerful GPUs that really benefit other "worthless" projects just because they grant the highest RAC credits.

If Rosetta wants to survive as a distributed computing project it will need to keep up, or be left behind.

In your profile, you can edit the cpu run time...


I'm well aware of that, but the fact remains it takes about a day to process one Rosetta work unit/core - if I set it to use 25% of CPU it will just take 4 times longer (but still use up about a day of continuous run time).

Thanks for your feedback VENETO, and keep up the good work, but I'm outta here ...
14) Message boards : Number crunching : ROSETTA MUST ENABLE GPU UNITS (Message 76872)
Posted 24 Jun 2014 by CZ
Post:
I would just like to add that enabling GPU processing is especially important considering Rosetta work units take so long compared to other projects - about 24 hours (on my Intel Core i5 3.2 MHz CPU) while I can crunch similar sized units for other projects on my GPU in 15 to 60 minutes.
15) Message boards : Number crunching : ROSETTA MUST ENABLE GPU UNITS (Message 76871)
Posted 24 Jun 2014 by CZ
Post:
I know there are many arguments about how difficult it is to do this, but Rosetta@home is slowly losing support as people who are here just to get the highest RAC will simply run other (much less important) projects.

It is a shame that such an important project, perhaps one of the three most "worthy" of our computing power, can't be bothered to make this difficult transition to attract the much more efficient GPU crunchers.

It is absolutely beyond my why such a well known, well established, well regarded, and long running project hasn't made this transition - do you not need our help, or do you just not care enough to do anything about it ?

Not being willing or able to enable GPU processing of Rosetta work units makes me question whether the scientific work being done by this project is viewed as worthy of the effort by their scientific peers in the IT area to make GPU processing possible for Rosetta.

Are we just wasting time here ?






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