Paul, I think this is one of the first things I said, who is official ?

Bill`s FAQ is a sticky, he is a Mod....Official ?

You can come across as an official, it`s very hard to define here. Although what you say may sound official if you`re not how will a newbie know the bunkum from the knowledge ?

So we have Bill saying yes you can move BOINC folder to other machine, you saying not ! I know we`ve been through this no need to cover old ground, but just to show how hypocritical it looks. If you`re a newbie coming in it could appear quite bemusing !

Anyway hopefully it is now in the pipeline.

Paul, I have not been agitated, as yet...this my normal self. I call a spade a spade and do not beat round the bush, I know some people don`t like it. Those with more perception like yourself will see the reasoning even if you think it askew. The other`s tend to be the sociopaths who decorate most forums from time to time.

You seem to have knowledge of the why`s and wherefores, whereas the average doesn`t, we get " No work "....we think why. Guy`s start drifting away with vast amounts of computing power, I don`t want that anymore than you. If it were only me that thought these thing`s I`d say I had a problem, it isn`t but I got the biggest mouth and don`t care that I upset a little guy in Mount Vernon somewhere USA. I care about my team getting work and holding it all together for the sake of the project and team. Now we have had guy`s with problems who`ve posted their troubles, in a lot of those threads you were absent infact they have had little help most of the time save their team mates who`ve run around like blue arsed flies trying to decipher bit`s of info from here there and everywhere.....and these are experienced crunchers !

I can understand to some degree your long time crunchers getting upset at what appears a big influx from FAD, with ideas of their own. Dr. Baker sought us out, to help with the project.Most of us think this is the only project, perhaps worth our effort and for some that is a big financial input and time consuming.

We have Nite Owl...https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/forum_thread.php?id=963 30+ machines....no work (or little)

Morphy 40+ machines..put most over to SIMAP.....reason..No work......

Hob..was 20+ machines then to 12+ but still cannot do the downloads cos he`s on dial up...moved to another project.

Please do not tell me these issues are not important ! Especially when the project director comes looking for more power !

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Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.

Snake Doctor I stated problems especially in knowing an official source of information.

The mods here allowed personal attacks on me, I was considered in my replies not abusive as they were. It is so kind of you to pick me out, thankyou. I, Paul D Buck, David Kim have had reasonable debate and although I have been flamed and verbally abused I have acted reasonably throughout. I have threatened no one.

You too are entitled to your opinion and I entitled to disagree.

Thankyou

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Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.

can we get back to the business at hand? we're trying to make this a positive experience for everyone. please get on the bandwagon or you're going to be left behind.

What you're actually doing is trying to turn this into your personal version of an FAD replacement. This is NOT FAD, FAD is over, and gone.

If you want to turn your team website into a clone of the FAD forum, that's your thing, but don't bring your team in here and try to make this project's forum conform to what you think it should look like.

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Proudly Banned from Predictator@Home and now Cosmology@home as well. Added SETI to the list today. Temporary ban only - so need to work harder :)



"You can't fix stupid" (Ron White)

Paul, I think this is one of the first things I said, who is official ?

The 'officials' are identified as such under their name in the left box of each post. It's there, it's clear.

For instance, David Kim is identified as 'Forum Moderator, Project Scientist, and Project Developer'.
How much more clear do you need it? Flashing lights? Rainbow colors?

Get over it.

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Proudly Banned from Predictator@Home and now Cosmology@home as well. Added SETI to the list today. Temporary ban only - so need to work harder :)



"You can't fix stupid" (Ron White)

Think you`ll find Angus we`re just trying to improve things to make communication easier and clearer than it is at present.

don't bring your team in here and try to make this project's forum conform to what you think it should look like.

Or ?

Now that appears a threat Snake Doctor !

Bill Michael
Joined: Oct 25, 2005
Posts: 572
ID: 6600
Credit: 15,771
RAC: 177


Sorry Angus you were saying ?

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Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.

....but don't bring your team in here and try to make this project's forum conform to what you think it should look like.

Why on earth not? Who do YOU think you are telling everyone to conform to YOUR ideas? Sound like a petty dictator to me. If there are enough people of like mind then is there a reason why it should not change? Or do you believe that you are the only one with the correct ideas? If everyone was like you then we would still be riding horses...afterall if it was good enough for our ancestors why should we change?

Carl,

Well, I call things as I see them too ... comes with being autistic ... :)

I am not suggesting the problems are non-existant, or trivial, or should not be repaired. Nor do I resent people from FAD nor thier ideas, or yours.

I am ONLY trying to suggest that this is an already plowed field and work is in progress. But, each and every one of these problems takes time. We have some procedures in place to try to find some of the issues. So far, all the tests seem to come back negative.

The data size issues, well, things are being tried, there is some effort to look into seeing if a more efficient compression package can be used with BOINC.

That is all I am saying. And you do come across not so much as a person that cares, but as a person that is shouting. at least to me. YMMV ...

As others, and I have said, regardless of how much you can bring to the table, if you are high maintenance, well, for me personally I would rather you leave so we can concentrate on a) helping those that need help and are willing to work with us, b) looking for answers to the problems in BOINC, c) writing up things in the WIki so all can share.

Lastly, I have turned down official positions because of health. You can tell how well I am doing by watching the "recent changes" in the WIki, if there are 150-250 changes a day with my name on them, I am doing well; if not, not ... if none, well, draw your own concusions. The point being, I don't feel I could serve ... Heck, I would not even "own" the wiki if I could find the magic to convert it into an official resource in roughly its current form ... but again ... another topic ...

So, your opinions are fine. Just be advised that crossing a line from legitimate problem identification to being a "crank" that is mearly finger pointing is tough to cross back over. *I* don't want you to paint yourself into the "crank" category.

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If you want to turn your team website into a clone of the FAD forum, that's your thing, but don't bring your team in here and try to make this project's forum conform to what you think it should look like.

My bold BTW.

Has everybody to ask your permission before making suggestions then Angus ?

Surely anybody should be free to do so equally ? I really dont understand all the fuss about a few suggestions being made.

As others, and I have said, regardless of how much you can bring to the table, if you are high maintenance, well, for me personally I would rather you leave so we can concentrate on a) helping those that need help and are willing to work with us, b) looking for answers to the problems in BOINC, c) writing up things in the WIki so all can share.

Recently I decided to divide my time between Rosetta@home & WCG.

I don't think Carl or any of the others on his team are high maintenance. They care very much about the project. They only want to see improvements and see more folks come here. Puzzled as to why some feel thats wrong or they should shut up and go away. :(

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Now that appears a threat Snake Doctor !

Carl,

There is a vast difference between an insult and a threat. While I would agree that you have been regularly insulted, you have not been threatened. You did however offer to meet someone and settle the issue face to face, and the implication in that offer is the threat of physical violence. I think you will find that the rules of the forum do not allow that kind of threat, and that is why I suggested you tone it down a notch.

It has been my experience here and elsewhere on the net, that if you do not attack people on a personal level they usually will not attack you at that level. That said it is obvious that there is some history here that is being dragged behind a number of new participants from other projects. I certainly have no problem with your offering suggestions to the project, in fact I would be the first to encourage that. But certainly you must realize that your suggestions will be colored by the way in which they are presented and represented. The tone of the conversation on this thread has clearly become caustic. You are not the only one whose posts could be cast in that light, but you were the first to offer physical confrontation as a result. That is the line you crossed and the reason I spoke directly to you.

I think you will find the moderators to be very tolerant of the nature of discussions, but there is a line beyond which they will act. All I was suggesting was that you take a moment to review the rules, and consider where your discussion was heading. There is no need for you to push the discussion to the point of having the moderators intercede.

As to the point of "Who is official", there are two categories of people on the boards. There are people directly involved in the day to day creation of the R@H project, lets call them the "project team" for clarity. David Kim, and David Baker are two of these. When they speak all of us should listen, because they are the R@H project.

As for the second group. David Baker has enlisted the assistance of a number of people from the user community to assist the project on a VOLUNTEER basis. Folks like Bill and River~, have been recruited to moderate the forums, feed information gleaned from that source back to the project team, and perform testing on various issues. So they have a quasi project team role, but they are not paid and they are not at the university writing code. I suppose you could say they have "... been recruited by the star league to patrol the frontier and resist the Zagon invasion".

This was done because most people would recognize that the project team is a limited resource. That resource is better used actually FIXING problems with the project, than they would be in trying to find out about problems by searching and responding to the forum boards. This approach is relatively new to the project and it is not perfect yet, but the moderators are working by and for the pleasure of the project team and the user community. These volunteers however, do have a life other than BOINC and R@H. So most of them do not see the end of the world coming if a problem does not get solved by the project team within five min of them drawing attention to it. Any of them will tell you to allow the problem to be addressed in due course by the project, and be patient.

For your purposes, if you have a problem, bring it to the attention of a moderator and it will be taken to the project team. It really is that simple. But it is not to your advantage to attack these guys. After they bring a problem to the attention of the project, that is when you will see Mr. Kim or Mr. Baker chime in on the issue. In a lot of cases the reason they have responded is because the moderation team did its job. But remember this, the size of the computer farm owned by the person rasing the question has no impact on the raking of issues. The issues are ranked based on the needs of the project.

Last but certainly not least, Paul Buck is the "WIKI guy". He has amassed more information at one location on the web about BOINC and the projects than it is humanly possible to manage. The problem facing him is that he is in fact just one guy. While some find it difficult to navigate his site, I can assure you that what you want to know is most likely in there somewhere if you look hard enough. If it is not, when you figure it out sent the info to him and he will include it. Paul can speak for himself on this but as far as I know he has no official ties to any of the projects, but he is respected and used by all of them.

So that is the system at R@H. it may not fit the model of other projects, or even the model you would prefer, but hey variety is the spice of life. This is supposed to be fun, lets keep it that way.

Regards
Phil

Snake Doctor I offered to help find a solution if he ever came to the UK. Where was the violent intent ? I`ll have a lawyer take a look if you so wish, there are a few around !

No sir, you jumped on me as the outsider. I took abuse as you admitted and as far as you ARE concerned it could have carried on.

Please whilst here direct us to the forum rules, we are as yet unable to locate them !

Thankyou.

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Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.

btw, my post above is a bit messed up, no idea why other than some BBCode format seems to have removed part of it (all it was was the italic bits)

But ideas for forum areas, names etc has been asked for by David (somewhere earlier on)
So suggestions have been made.

Of course a lot of the information is now lost in bickering <sp?>

So I'll start a new thread on forum sections for David to take idea from.

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Team mauisun.org

As others, and I have said, regardless of how much you can bring to the table, if you are high maintenance, well, for me personally I would rather you leave so we can concentrate on a) helping those that need help and are willing to work with us, b) looking for answers to the problems in BOINC, c) writing up things in the WIki so all can share.

Recently I decided to divide my time between Rosetta@home & WCG.

I don't think Carl or any of the others on his team are high maintenance. They care very much about the project. They only want to see improvements and see more folks come here. Puzzled as to why some feel thats wrong or they should shut up and go away. :(

While I think Paul is perfectly capable of speaking for himself, I don't think he or anyone else was suggesting either of those concepts right out of the box. He is the last person to shut off responsible. and civil discussion. But, what he is saying is things take time. While people might want instant fixes, they just aren't going to get them.

In this case, folks have posted their suggestions, but failed to allow sufficient time for others to consider and/or implement them, and gone on to start banging on the table, and trying to blackmail the project with threats of leaving and taking massive computing power from the project. The project was here when you cam and it will be here if you leave. All Paul is saying is if you want to leave then leave, the longer you stay under those terms the more time people are wasting trying to be nice to you under un-reciprocated conditions to calm you down (IE you are high maintenance).

It is admirable that there is a large team out there and equally so that folks care enough about that to try to keep the group cohesive. I would particularly commend Carl for that effort. But, if you step back from that and look at it from the project point of view, keeping that group together is not their problem. If people want to VOLUNTEER their time to the project great, if they want to contribute, Better yet, if they want to work on solving the problems with the project team, best of all. But nobody forced anyone to spend their money on crunching this project. Nobody really cares how much anyone else spent on their equipment. We all spent money on our equipment. That money and the equipment it brings are being donated to the project by WILLING participants. If you don't want to donate, or are not WILLING, don't.

What Paul has pointed out is that if all people want to do is argue with other forum members, demand significant changes in the project without any offer of assistance, or berate and belittle the project and it's operators because they don't act on the schedule or priorities of the requester, then he simply does not have the time (IE you are high maintenance).

Frankly, I would have to agree with Paul on that one. What would you rather see fixed, the "no work" issue, or the forum format? What bothers you as the owner of a farm more, having a WU stuck at 1% for 6 hours, or the headings on the discussion boards?

While the suggestions offered may have merit, the tone in which they have been tendered, is inappropriately abrasive and abusive of the project leaders. Many of the most vocal people involved in this discussion have been with the project less than three weeks. Try it for a while the way it is, you may like it just the way it is. In any case if you try it for a while you may begin to understand why it is the way it is, and may decide it should not be changed.

But as to the tone of the discussion on this thread, it is not within the norm of this project. Usually the tone is very civil and oriented toward problem solving. In my observation this is the first flame war I have seen on this project. There is almost never any ranting, and as such many here will find they will be confronted on those points. Offer suggestions in a civil tone without personal attacks, join in professional discussions on technical topics and you will be welcomed. go the other way and you won't it is just that simple. There is an old saying in the US that may not translate overseas, but it is applicable here. If one man calls you a jackass, laugh, if a second man calls you a jackass, engage him in battle, if a third man calls you a jackass ... Buy a saddle.

The point is not to call anyone names, but to indicate that I and others have suggested that the tone of the conversation here should change. That plea has not just fallen on deaf ears, but a lot of bits have been expended by people to try to justify a tone that is clearly outside the norm for this project. Like Paul I have better things to do than help those who will not help themselves. So I would agree with him, if you want to leave just do so, and let all of us get back to the real project issues. If the tone keeps going in the direction it is, Carl will get his wish, and the moderation team will shut it down or censor it. Your choice.

Regards
Phil

I reiterate..as far as I`m concerned the issues were discussed with David Kim to a satisfactory outcome.

. If one man calls you a jackass, laugh, if a second man calls you a jackass, engage him in battle, if a third man calls you a jackass ... Buy a saddle.

The point is not to call anyone names

We have some sayings in the UK too...but I`ll avoid them in this instance, think them but avoid saying.

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Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.

If you want to turn your team website into a clone of the FAD forum, that's your thing, but don't bring your team in here and try to make this project's forum conform to what you think it should look like.

My bold BTW.

Has everybody to ask your permission before making suggestions then Angus ?

Surely anybody should be free to do so equally ? I really dont understand all the fuss about a few suggestions being made.

Carl and co. are strident about making changes to a forum layout that is that standard among BOINC projects. It works, and the Rosetta team have bigger fish to fry than trying to program their own version of thsi forum. The forum software is part and parcel of the BOINC server-side product, provided by BOINC.

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Proudly Banned from Predictator@Home and now Cosmology@home as well. Added SETI to the list today. Temporary ban only - so need to work harder :)



"You can't fix stupid" (Ron White)

David Kim said :

We realize the message boards have become unweildy and hard to manage, so we ask for and greatly appreciate help and constructive feeback.

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Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.

no angus you're mistaken on 2 counts.

i did not make suggestions to have Dr. Kim rewrite a whole new message board. i posted a suggestion as to how this board could be improved, as per his request farther down in this thread. please do a search and read it.

no one is trying to clone this into the FaD forum so please get off that. we know that FaD is over, you should too. this project has a lot of information to digest, but the message board only has 2 sections. the one entitled "questions and answers" gets questions and precious few answers. the other section for discussion gets questions spread throughout it and it's a shame but you have to wade thru a lot of BS to glean out answers. it shouldn't have to be that way. that's what we'd like changed. just a clear, organized form of communication. what's so hard to understand about that? and as a side note, there is no mention of a time deadline. i am more than willing to wait for quality changes.

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...Carl and co. are strident about making changes to a forum layout that is that standard among BOINC projects.....

Angus, Before opening mouth try and get the facts right. It is NOT standard amongst BOINC. I do not claim t know about ALL boinc projects as you claim to do....but I suggest you look at ClimatePrediction and WCG forums which are the more normal standard type of forum. It is the majority of Boinc which deviates.....

Think you`ll find Angus we`re just trying to improve things to make communication easier and clearer than it is at present.

don't bring your team in here and try to make this project's forum conform to what you think it should look like.

Or ?

Now that appears a threat Snake Doctor !

Bill Michael
Joined: Oct 25, 2005
Posts: 572
ID: 6600
Credit: 15,771
RAC: 177


Sorry Angus you were saying ?

I have no idea what point you're trying to make with this post...

Are you asking me to post my stats?

Angus
Joined: Sep 17, 2005
Posts: 50
ID: 83
Credit: 253,554
RAC: 259

If you're trying to point out that Bill M doesn't show as a moderator, it's because he isn't one - at least not with that account. And by the way, I must congratulate him on his much improved tone lately. Well done, Bill. ( not that it means anything for me to praise you.)

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Proudly Banned from Predictator@Home and now Cosmology@home as well. Added SETI to the list today. Temporary ban only - so need to work harder :)



"You can't fix stupid" (Ron White)

...Carl and co. are strident about making changes to a forum layout that is that standard among BOINC projects.....

Angus, Before opening mouth try and get the facts right. It is NOT standard amongst BOINC. I do not claim t know about ALL boinc projects as you claim to do....but I suggest you look at ClimatePrediction and WCG forums which are the more normal standard type of forum. It is the majority of Boinc which deviates.....

A standard forum package IS distributed as part of the BOINC server package. Perhaps YOU should go browse through the open source code before you tell me I'm wrong.

If some of the more mature or well-funded and well-staffed projects that existed before BOINC came along want to expend their efforts to make a new forum, that's fine.

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Proudly Banned from Predictator@Home and now Cosmology@home as well. Added SETI to the list today. Temporary ban only - so need to work harder :)



"You can't fix stupid" (Ron White)