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Profile scsimodo

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Message 9476 - Posted: 20 Jan 2006, 20:46:03 UTC - in response to Message 9469.  



I left Rosetta (for a while) because 20 out of 30+ machines were out of work yesterday morning....


Why do so many people complain about the "no work from project" message? There's more work out there we can crunch in the foreseeable future. BOINC ist designed for multi project use, so why don't you simply attach a fallback project with a 10% share? It's a matter of minutes and your hosts will never be idle again..

I'm fed up with this ranting! Let the admins do their work to improve the project an don't steal their time with non-existant problems. They know about the "no work" message and try to solve this issue (among others)

I can't believe that there are grown-up people complaining about the board layout and subforums. This is ridiculous!!

BTW: I never ran out of Rosetta-WUs. Sure, I got the no work message but with my 1 day cache my hosts always had at least 1 Rosetta WU.
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Message 9477 - Posted: 20 Jan 2006, 20:51:42 UTC - in response to Message 9476.  



I left Rosetta (for a while) because 20 out of 30+ machines were out of work yesterday morning....


Why do so many people complain about the "no work from project" message? There's more work out there we can crunch in the foreseeable future. BOINC ist designed for multi project use, so why don't you simply attach a fallback project with a 10% share? It's a matter of minutes and your hosts will never be idle again..

I'm fed up with this ranting! Let the admins do their work to improve the project an don't steal their time with non-existant problems. They know about the "no work" message and try to solve this issue (among others)

I can't believe that there are grown-up people complaining about the board layout and subforums. This is ridiculous!!

BTW: I never ran out of Rosetta-WUs. Sure, I got the no work message but with my 1 day cache my hosts always had at least 1 Rosetta WU.


I didn't rant. I just stated a fact and why. And I said that I'll be back when the new servers are online.
And I do only one project at a time.
And it's my legal right to state facts, make suggestions and rant about this forum style.
So where's Your problem?
Teddies....
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Message 9478 - Posted: 20 Jan 2006, 20:59:33 UTC
Last modified: 20 Jan 2006, 21:00:47 UTC

Good to hear scsi but some of don`t want to look for aliens, or predict or find stardust.

As for stealing I don`t think we do, I think we put a great deal of time and effort in ourselves.We are trying our best to sort out a two way relationship, now playing with yourself might help you, it doesn`t me.

Communication is the key to everything. We are looking for a good way to communicate so we are informed and so are the scientist. You`ll note we said we wanted an area from them where we couldn`t reply, this was so their stuff remained clearly so everyone could see.

Whilst you have never run out of work I have guys with 30 & 40 + host farms who have, so excuse us if we don`t say Scsi is alright it doesn`t matter.

If you are fed up with the ranting, don`t come it`s that easy. We are just trying to sort out what we see are problems.

You are of course like everyone else entitled to an opinion, I respect yours though I may not agree.
Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.
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Message 9479 - Posted: 20 Jan 2006, 21:02:05 UTC - in response to Message 9476.  


I can't believe that there are grown-up people complaining about the board layout and subforums. This is ridiculous!!


It is to make information etc easier to find.

The boards layout just now is poor, with lots of conflicting information IMO. It takes far too long to find anything.
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Message 9482 - Posted: 20 Jan 2006, 21:44:03 UTC - in response to Message 9477.  

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Message 9484 - Posted: 20 Jan 2006, 22:01:19 UTC - in response to Message 9482.  

It IS a problem when Rosetta is ready for prime time, which means, if all major bugs are solved. But it's way to go for the admins.

Agreed! :)

The administrators should of course determine their own priorities with respect to what is most useful for the overall project goals, and stick with them or modify them as things evolve. Hopefully they are somewhat "thick skinned" and do not let the more abrasive-toned comments bother them or get them off-track. :D

Regards,
Bob P.
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Message 9485 - Posted: 20 Jan 2006, 22:05:14 UTC
Last modified: 20 Jan 2006, 22:09:03 UTC

But scsi listen to what we are saying, "No Work" is a problem when there isn`t any at all on your machines. If you have 40 machines set up around your home and you are getting " No work " or upload download troubles this is a real problem...We`ll sort it out later is what you hear from a bad workman !


You cannot wait till Prime time to sort it all out then, there will be no prime time if we cannot get it right now.

If we cannot successfully match the known how will match the unknown ? We take this seriously, it is not a game to pause. This part of the project is probably the most important for all of us.
Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.
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Message 9486 - Posted: 20 Jan 2006, 22:11:16 UTC - in response to Message 9478.  
Last modified: 20 Jan 2006, 22:13:23 UTC

Good to hear scsi but some of don`t want to look for aliens, or predict or find stardust.


Agreed, but BOINC consists of more than a dozen project. I guess there's at least one for you (and your team members/friends) that's worth a 10% share.


Communication is the key to everything. We are looking for a good way to communicate so we are informed and so are the scientist. You`ll note we said we wanted an area from them where we couldn`t reply, this was so their stuff remained clearly so everyone could see.

I'll think you agree that Rosetta is a project with the most communicative admins. They know about the issues the project has and are behind them. What to expect more? Their staff is limited, so it takes some time. IMHO no need to repeat the problems again and again.


Whilst you have never run out of work I have guys with 30 & 40 + host farms who have, so excuse us if we don`t say Scsi is alright it doesn`t matter.

See above, there MUST be an interesting project for everyone that woth a 10% share. No host must be out of work. OK, if two projects fail at the same time there's no work. Well... shit happens...


If you are fed up with the ranting, don`t come it`s that easy. We are just trying to sort out what we see are problems.

Agreed again, but what you see as problems has been reported and discussed a few times. Again, the admins know about that and are working on it


You are of course like everyone else entitled to an opinion, I respect yours though I may not agree.

I respect your opinion, too. But give the admins time to solve this issues. Behind the scenes they have LOTS of additional work to do. Just be patient until things sort out.

BTW: Even if Rosetta seems to have problems now. I think it will be a great project in the future (if not THE greatest among all other BOINC projects). I guess you'll agree, carl.h! Sorry, that I don't follow you suggestion to leave, I'll stick with Rosetta. And at least one fallback project :-))

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Message 9488 - Posted: 20 Jan 2006, 22:35:35 UTC

Scsi I didn`t mean leave the project...I meant the thread...;-)

We`re fighting cos we believe in it too....

You may have seen all the info and be happy.Coming in from the outside this place is a nightmare with often what seem`s hypocritical answers even Paul D Buck agreed with that, it really does need straightening out and putting in order.

I couldn`t see admin were working on the problem nor any of my team mates. We are patient we`ve been through all this before but we know what can go wrong on our side and we`re trying to prevent the loss of the workforce which is equally important.

Yes, I`m loud and abrasive and a pain in the butt.....but I am fighting FOR the project not against it.

If you were at UD you would have seen what happened when the workforce were ignored in favour of the Admin first issues..with no updates.....hundreds left taking thousand of machines.

I don`t want 10% of anything else on my machines I have no faith in them or interest. A lot of us feel it`s Rosetta or the end of DC for us. I do not want my fellow team mates temporarily subbed out to another project where they may get cosy and not come back either. I`ve seen it happen a lot over 5 years.
Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.
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Message 9489 - Posted: 20 Jan 2006, 23:15:00 UTC - in response to Message 9488.  


I don`t want 10% of anything else on my machines I have no faith in them or interest. A lot of us feel it`s Rosetta or the end of DC for us. I do not want my fellow team mates temporarily subbed out to another project where they may get cosy and not come back either. I`ve seen it happen a lot over 5 years.


Well, I understand that you want to crunch for one project only. But that's not always possibe. Some projects have downtimes (e.g. Server upgrades) up to one week, some projects have downtimes (announced) 4-6 weeks (LHC).

I would like to see a BOINC feature that does:

1. Get WU for project x
2. crunch for project x
3. if WU queue is empty an no new work available
4. get ONE WU from project y
5. goto 1

I think this would fit your needs (mine too). But that's a BOINC problem, not Rosetta's.


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Message 9490 - Posted: 20 Jan 2006, 23:35:59 UTC
Last modified: 20 Jan 2006, 23:36:48 UTC

As the scsimod said, projects have downtimes, it's unreasonable to expect a project to have work 100% of the time (even if this particular situation with the queue is mostly a BOINC issue). Let's try to avoid sounding like some SETI fanatics who have 200 PCs crunching for just 1 project.

If I understand you fellows correctly, you want to contribute to life-science projects. If this is the case, you could also join the WCG Human Proteome Folding (HPF), which is applying the Rosetta software on the human genome (you'll be running the same software like here, just a couple minor versions back i.e. v4.22 rather than v4.8x here and btw it has worked very smoothly, not a single hiccup sofar).

Have a look at the "HowTo" doc in my sig, I have compiled a rather extensive list, with as much info as I could gather and give my own choices (and please let me know about suggestions/errors/ommissions etc).
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Message 9494 - Posted: 21 Jan 2006, 0:07:45 UTC - in response to Message 9490.  



If I understand you fellows correctly, you want to contribute to life-science projects. If this is the case, you could also join the WCG Human Proteome Folding (HPF), which is applying the Rosetta software on the human genome (you'll be running the same software like here, just a couple minor versions back i.e. v4.22 rather than v4.8x here and btw it has worked very smoothly, not a single hiccup sofar).


Simple answer? No!
Tried 5 Minutes to get information about BOINC and how to join. No luck!
Why using Rosetta 4.22 when I can help improving Rosetta 4.8x? Strange project, if you ask me
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Message 9495 - Posted: 21 Jan 2006, 0:36:43 UTC - in response to Message 9494.  
Last modified: 21 Jan 2006, 1:10:55 UTC

Simple answer? No!
Tried 5 Minutes to get information about BOINC and how to join. No luck!
Why using Rosetta 4.22 when I can help improving Rosetta 4.8x? Strange project, if you ask me


Well, I don't blame you for giving up, because WCG/IBM want you to download UD's agent if you're running Windows (not irrational, considering the issues some users face setting up BOINC) and have only Linux users join via BOINC.

To join via BOINC as a Win user, you just need to proceed as if you were a Linux user, i.e. to register via WCG's register page and input the emailed Account Key in your Win-BOINC Mgr. (WCG BOINC help page). I've tested WCG's BOINC both for Win and Linux for the past 2 weeks and had no problems whatsoever.

As far as the project itself, AFAIK HPF is applying the Rosetta sw, whereas here we're helping further develop / improve the Rosetta method/algorithm itself (at this stage of the R@H project). (Disclaimer: I'm not an insider of any of the 2 projects, please correct me if I got it wrong).

About HPF
The Human Proteome Folding project is basic medical research. We are given some fundamental components of cells (proteins of unknown function) and we try to deduce their shape, then from this deduce which other proteins they interact with, and how. It is like pouring the components of an Erector set onto the living room floor and trying to figure out what goes with what. The goal is to figure out the functional networks that drive basic cell processes. Once you have identified the function of a protein you can:

1. Select it as a target for a drug to interfere with its function
2. Figure out how it works and design a drug to duplicate the effect
3. Develop a diagnostic test to detect the concentration of that protein in order to measure the level of activity

Without the protein information, these three things are very important objectives that can only be accomplished by mass screening of a vast number of chemical compounds, hoping for a lucky breakthrough. Even with this information, a great deal of work, skill and luck is required to develop a drug.

The HPF project can provide very useful information for drug development, but it is aimed at basic understanding that can then be used to develop drugs. We are providing the shape information. Scientists studying the databases with this structural information will predict the function of the proteins (annotate the proteins).


It's not bad, they keep the troops updated on progrss etc, e.g.
update on HPF2 from head scientist, 3 days ago
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Message 9498 - Posted: 21 Jan 2006, 3:17:03 UTC

A lot of good debating back and forth. Myself, I am all for people who want to just run one project. Its their computer, its their right, and if Rosetta is what interests them, then go for it. I crunch for the sake of the projects. I am currently attached to 7, not just because I can, because they all have some form of interesting stuff that I would like to do. Some work units take less than an hour (right now SIMAP is doing that), and others are taking 40+ hours (SETI BETA). Way I see it, is if you wanna do just 1 project, do it. Just because a problem has been brought up 20 times before doesn't mean it isn't a problem now, nor will it be later on. Computers are like us, they make mistakes, they break down, they don't work. Simple fact of life.

Happy crunching to all! :-)

Jeremy

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Message 9504 - Posted: 21 Jan 2006, 4:52:44 UTC - in response to Message 9489.  


I don`t want 10% of anything else on my machines I have no faith in them or interest. A lot of us feel it`s Rosetta or the end of DC for us. I do not want my fellow team mates temporarily subbed out to another project where they may get cosy and not come back either. I`ve seen it happen a lot over 5 years.


Well, I understand that you want to crunch for one project only. But that's not always possibe. Some projects have downtimes (e.g. Server upgrades) up to one week, some projects have downtimes (announced) 4-6 weeks (LHC).

I would like to see a BOINC feature that does:

1. Get WU for project x
2. crunch for project x
3. if WU queue is empty an no new work available
4. get ONE WU from project y
5. goto 1

I think this would fit your needs (mine too). But that's a BOINC problem, not Rosetta's.

This is actually quite easy to accomplish. Simply set the backup project to .001 resource share. It'll download a WU right away, but it will download EXTREMELY rarely compared to Rosetta's default 100 resource share. Once the first WU is completed, it shouldn't download another for a very long time (depending on the actual numbers). BOINC will run these projects in fractions of total resource share. With the numbers cited, over weeks/months, it'll run Rosetta 99.999% of the time, and the backup .001%.
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Message 9513 - Posted: 21 Jan 2006, 6:44:52 UTC

Back to more sensible posting away from idiots -

David I had 3 No Work from Project on both my machines, both around 0400 UTC this morning....
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Message 9517 - Posted: 21 Jan 2006, 8:42:23 UTC - in response to Message 9515.  

I had no idea we were that important Angus.
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Message 9519 - Posted: 21 Jan 2006, 8:56:08 UTC

Ah but we had a PERSONAL invite at FaD from David Baker to join him, so we must be important! ;-)
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Message 9522 - Posted: 21 Jan 2006, 13:52:38 UTC

Somewhere above was a suggestion for a do this project and only do another project if there is no work, in my opinion that should certainly be a boinc option.
Also there should be the option of 'finish the work unit then switch' rather than a timed version as it is. (or for cpdn finish a trickle ?)


But this is boinc suggestion though, not a rosetta suggestion.

But for now for all the people that want to do a main project liek me and countless others, but still don't mind doing something else when there is no work to do then have a look at Truxoft's newer client.

Seems to be the only person out there really modifying boinc (hopefully it'll feed back in to the official version as well.

http://boinc.truxoft.com/core-cal.htm
Priority Projects
When you assign a project or multiple projects to the priority group with the help of this tag, the core client will ignore all other rules for scheduling individual tasks and as long as there is work available it will always start the first project in the comma delimited list. If there are no workunits available for the first priority project, it will try starting the second one (if present), etc. When there is no work for projects of the priority group, the client switches to the standard scheduling mode[/i]

Is a best fix we have at the moment



As for forum name,

do not call it

I recon

-News & Happenings
Official news and also current problems, fixes in progress

-Help & Support
For help & support ;-)
(note: not member to member support as the title!)

-Number Crunching
It is a boinc project adn that is boincs name for that stats talk ;)

-Suggestions
.

-Cafe
Chit chat

-Team Talk
Just to keep it out of the cafe


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Profile Paul D. Buck

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Message 9523 - Posted: 21 Jan 2006, 13:55:22 UTC

Coming in from the outside this place is a nightmare with often what seem`s hypocritical answers even Paul D Buck agreed with that, it really does need straightening out and putting in order.

Um, just where did I say that?

The project folks do not give out bad information. Bill did say something that I felt is bad because it is not a recommended practice. But, that information was not an official recommendation to the best of my knowledge. That is the only thing I can think of that you may be referring to ...

On other boards many participants recommend the use of optimized BOINC Client Software to "fix" what they percieve as low credit claims. How they know that the claims are low has never been proven, especially true since no project has ever stated what a given item of work is "worth" yet ... but I digress... I also don't agree with those recommendations to the point where I have been quite the unpopular heathen ...

So, yes, participants do give out advice that I believe is un-good, and will say so. But, the advice was of what is POSSIBLE, not what is RECOMMENDED.

Anyway, carl, I think why there is some, um, resistance to your agitation is that most of what you are advocating are things that ARE being worked on. But, you seem to feel that progress must be more immediate. Yet, knowing what I do, many of the issues are somewhat out of the "scope" of the project principles. Some of what you see as one problem is actually the symptom of another. Operational issues, like "no work available" are a combination of possible bugs in the feeder coupled with no good guidance to the operators on how to configure, monitor, and manage the operational system (incomplete documentation).

My suggestions on mechanisms/ways to improve this have been recieved with, well, tepid is a little too warm a term for the reception so far. To this point health and finances have precluded me from doing significantly more on my own, but, maybe someday ...

Anyway, mostly what you are doing is stomping ground that has already been stomped. The suggestion to change the forums to something like your recommendation has been tried and is successful at Einstein@Home. This change has not made it into the baseline yet. IN part because Dr. Anderson does not agree that this is the proper change, and partly because no one has coded a change ...

So, it is fine to say that there is a problem, but, ask not what the project can do for you, ask what can you do for the project ...
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