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Message 28628 - Posted: 28 Sep 2006, 20:19:11 UTC
Last modified: 28 Sep 2006, 20:36:36 UTC



I no longer recommend that people use Crunch3r's 5.5.0 BOINC client.


It's still on some of my PCs,


306 day`s ago Biggles wrote :

Just a few thoughts.

I'm not going to participate in a project rife with cheating. I know there will always be some on all projects, but there is a difference between a little and a lot. Many people feel the same way, especially from the stats driven teams.

What about ignoring the BOINC benchmark for credit purposes and have a benchmark within Rosetta itself? That way it wouldn't be open to tampered BOINC clients.

Optimised clients are a good thing if they speed up crunching and cut the crunching times. It wouldn't be fair to do things twice as fast as everyone else and only get half the credit for it. So flop counting would make it far more fair, and would make the use of optimised clients a good thing.

The guy who is mentioned further up the thread, with the huge RAC from a Pentium 4, is anonymous. It was pointed out he could have legit production from a whole bunch of machines and just have merged them. We of course can't tell without being able to view his computers. What about turning off merging? I know it could cause things to be messy if we re-install clients etc. But we could lump them together under an inactive installs heading and just hide them. That way we could tell if production in the case above was legit or not.

Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

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Message 28631 - Posted: 28 Sep 2006, 21:28:13 UTC - in response to Message 28624.  

Biggles you dont know when to quit, don't you?

Want to keep the issue going? Do so at your risk.


When I quit won't be decided by you Jose. And as far as I'm aware, I'm not under any threat. I'm not breaking any rules, I'm not making baseless accusations, I'm not hassling people, I'm not offending people. I'm also not making threats.

carl.h, again, choice quoting has changed the meaning of what I said. If you had quoted the full sentence, which was "It's still on some of my PCs, but will come off in time when I visit them." then it'd have been obvious that I do fully intend to eradicate it when I can. I simply haven't been able to yet.
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Message 28632 - Posted: 28 Sep 2006, 21:29:20 UTC - in response to Message 28626.  

Now is probably a good time to remind people of the saying, "Don't sweat the little stuff. <long pause> It's all little stuff."


The problem is that little flames start big fires. And, alas, Biggles is playinmg with a little flame.

This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
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Message 28633 - Posted: 28 Sep 2006, 21:30:03 UTC - in response to Message 28626.  

Now is probably a good time to remind people of the saying, "Don't sweat the little stuff. <long pause> It's all little stuff."


This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
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Message 28635 - Posted: 28 Sep 2006, 21:43:54 UTC

So Biggles 306 day`s ago you proclaimed it "C" ....

but on Sept 5th 2006, you were still advertising it by a link on your team forum and still had it on some of your PC`s....hmmmm

If you look back through your post`s, it appears you SEEMED to be persecuting those who used it, particularly one team mentioned time and again.

It does seem rather hypocritical of you.

I`m not here to restart a war, simply to answer enquiries !
Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

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Message 28641 - Posted: 29 Sep 2006, 0:25:04 UTC - in response to Message 28635.  

So Biggles 306 day`s ago you proclaimed it "C" ....

but on Sept 5th 2006, you were still advertising it by a link on your team forum and still had it on some of your PC`s....hmmmm

If you look back through your post`s, it appears you SEEMED to be persecuting those who used it, particularly one team mentioned time and again.

It does seem rather hypocritical of you.

I`m not here to restart a war, simply to answer enquiries !


Carl, that's incorrect and you know it.

I said the project was rife with cheating. I stated nothing about the source of that cheating, I never said it was from the use of optimised BOINC clients. In fact on numerous occasions I have explicitly stated that I didn't view the use of optimised clients as cheating.

And funnily enough, in September, it didn't matter about the use of 5.5.0 anymore anyway. I talked about it because the original poster had asked about Crunch3r. I was replying to him.

I have run 5.5.0 (and others) in the past. Some of my machines still have these clients on them, although what they run now is irrelevant. Once upon a time I was in favour of optimised clients and trying to eke out every possible credit. Now that I've seen the ill-effect that it has had on the project I have changed my opinion to them being a bad thing. And I would like to see the damage repaired, regardless of who it hits the most. XS would be hit the most since they are the biggest team - if they weren't then it would be Free-DC, or DPC etc. It was never anything personal, it was always about trying to persuade them (them meaning all users on all teams that ran optimised clients) that a change in credit system and a backdating was a good idea.

The biggest problem is that everybody seems so set in their ways and never change their views in light of new information.

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Message 28644 - Posted: 29 Sep 2006, 5:49:40 UTC - in response to Message 28641.  
Last modified: 29 Sep 2006, 5:52:33 UTC

So Biggles 306 day`s ago you proclaimed it "C" ....

but on Sept 5th 2006, you were still advertising it by a link on your team forum and still had it on some of your PC`s....hmmmm

If you look back through your post`s, it appears you SEEMED to be persecuting those who used it, particularly one team mentioned time and again.

It does seem rather hypocritical of you.

I`m not here to restart a war, simply to answer enquiries !


Carl, that's incorrect and you know it.

I said the project was rife with cheating. I stated nothing about the source of that cheating, I never said it was from the use of optimised BOINC clients. In fact on numerous occasions I have explicitly stated that I didn't view the use of optimised clients as cheating.

And funnily enough, in September, it didn't matter about the use of 5.5.0 anymore anyway. I talked about it because the original poster had asked about Crunch3r. I was replying to him.

I have run 5.5.0 (and others) in the past. Some of my machines still have these clients on them, although what they run now is irrelevant. Once upon a time I was in favour of optimised clients and trying to eke out every possible credit. Now that I've seen the ill-effect that it has had on the project I have changed my opinion to them being a bad thing. And I would like to see the damage repaired, regardless of who it hits the most. XS would be hit the most since they are the biggest team - if they weren't then it would be Free-DC, or DPC etc. It was never anything personal, it was always about trying to persuade them (them meaning all users on all teams that ran optimised clients) that a change in credit system and a backdating was a good idea.

The biggest problem is that everybody seems so set in their ways and never change their views in light of new information.



Biggles: the only information that counts is the word of David Baker and David Kim that the issue of backdating is closed.

See Biggles: at least you are consistent: You want to see XS hit the most and if you can take down Free Dc or the DPCs down that would be frosting.

So I ask the moderators: What good is going to come form this continued re-hashing of the backdating argument? Are you going to wait for another major flame-war before you decided to take down this , now useless, thread?

Biggles you are trying to re start a flame war, please dont be disingenious.
This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
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Message 28646 - Posted: 29 Sep 2006, 6:50:34 UTC
Last modified: 29 Sep 2006, 7:49:58 UTC

Biggles what I posted was indeed correct in my opinion. If you go back through your post`s you continually lambast optimised users and specifically XS. Yet fail to say this actually started with Seti users who were at fault of skewing the Boinc points initially. Once they were skewed it was unchangeable, the fact that others came MUCH later and skewed them some more makes no difference. No one can actually state with any great certainty, without a total rehash back to ?, who cheated, when and how much or even the fact it was cheating because it was not declared illegal. The fact of the matter is that Boinc devs and project devs NEVER stated it illegal so therefore, as you wrote in one or two of your post`s, it wasn`t cheating. The fact that from time to time you altered this position to suit is what comes across as hypocrisy.

There have been a lot of people here calling foul and lambasting one particular team because they stood up and were honest, a lot of these people were part of the original cause of the skewing of points.

The biggest problem is that everybody seems so set in their ways and never change their views in light of new information.


No the biggest problem is people changing their view to suit their own argument and then changing it back to suit a different forum. Your own seeming witch hunt against XS when you were just as guilty is hypocritical to say the least, many others were just as bad.

During September XS called for opti`s to be taken off all members machines, how many of you teams did similar ? Biggles you posted a bloomin link to 5.5 in September. I know what you posted but it`s like saying I don`t think alcohol is good but there`s free beer round the corner !

Now if this is just a personal argument between you and I over your hypocrisy or not , may I suggest we take it elsewhere before it blows up into old argument once again. There is a real hatred in DC now between some teams that is not far from violence.

Failing that I will settle that someone neutral who I respect decide if you were actually hypocritical or not. I don`t expect you`ll like being judged but you are quick to judge others.

A little message
Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.
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Message 28663 - Posted: 29 Sep 2006, 11:45:12 UTC - in response to Message 28646.  

Biggles what I posted was indeed correct in my opinion. If you go back through your post`s you continually lambast optimised users and specifically XS. Yet fail to say this actually started with Seti users who were at fault of skewing the Boinc points initially. Once they were skewed it was unchangeable, the fact that others came MUCH later and skewed them some more makes no difference. No one can actually state with any great certainty, without a total rehash back to ?, who cheated, when and how much or even the fact it was cheating because it was not declared illegal. The fact of the matter is that Boinc devs and project devs NEVER stated it illegal so therefore, as you wrote in one or two of your post`s, it wasn`t cheating. The fact that from time to time you altered this position to suit is what comes across as hypocrisy.

There have been a lot of people here calling foul and lambasting one particular team because they stood up and were honest, a lot of these people were part of the original cause of the skewing of points.

The biggest problem is that everybody seems so set in their ways and never change their views in light of new information.


No the biggest problem is people changing their view to suit their own argument and then changing it back to suit a different forum. Your own seeming witch hunt against XS when you were just as guilty is hypocritical to say the least, many others were just as bad.

During September XS called for opti`s to be taken off all members machines, how many of you teams did similar ? Biggles you posted a bloomin link to 5.5 in September. I know what you posted but it`s like saying I don`t think alcohol is good but there`s free beer round the corner !

Now if this is just a personal argument between you and I over your hypocrisy or not , may I suggest we take it elsewhere before it blows up into old argument once again. There is a real hatred in DC now between some teams that is not far from violence.

Failing that I will settle that someone neutral who I respect decide if you were actually hypocritical or not. I don`t expect you`ll like being judged but you are quick to judge others.

A little message



Biggles is discovering the Law of unintended Consequences: See once XS left Rosetta because of the lack of support from the developers against the baseless accusations from people that shall remain nameless, the guys at XS found themselves with a lot of crunching power to use in other projects: Some have decided to challenge the mother of all teams , Easy News , in WCG ( a battle that is going to produce gazillions of wus for the projects); while others have decided to go and do work in other Vault projects. To say the least , the presence of XS is being felt i many projects and that is what is bothering Biggles and the likes of Biggles. For example in less than a month 10 guys from XS (some of them not even crunching 24/7 are mounting a concentrated challenge for top spot in a project where less than a week ago Biggles was the Participant of the day .

See: had XS been in what was a basic monogamous relationship with Rosetta ( as it was) the position of the teams whose memberes slandered us in other projects would have been safe: now it is not.

XS is now in the process of showing that we have the power to overtake any team, in any project we want using the standard clients and without asking for special favors as some teams are asking here. (Favors like resetting or backdating)

This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
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Message 28664 - Posted: 29 Sep 2006, 11:51:33 UTC - in response to Message 28631.  

Biggles you dont know when to quit, don't you?

Want to keep the issue going? Do so at your risk.


When I quit won't be decided by you Jose. And as far as I'm aware, I'm not under any threat. I'm not breaking any rules, I'm not making baseless accusations, I'm not hassling people, I'm not offending people. I'm also not making threats.

carl.h, again, choice quoting has changed the meaning of what I said. If you had quoted the full sentence, which was "It's still on some of my PCs, but will come off in time when I visit them." then it'd have been obvious that I do fully intend to eradicate it when I can. I simply haven't been able to yet.



You have not been able or you have not been willing?

I for one hope you dont: every day you do not shows to the world, the weakness of all your hypocritical moralizing: The self serving actions and comments you keep making are a sign of how baseless your accusations against XS were.
This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
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Message 28665 - Posted: 29 Sep 2006, 11:51:36 UTC - in response to Message 28631.  
Last modified: 29 Sep 2006, 11:55:05 UTC

Self edit: Accidental double post
This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
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Message 28671 - Posted: 29 Sep 2006, 13:27:46 UTC - in response to Message 28663.  

snip usual flaim(bait)ing by Jose in big bold letters

Jose,

sometimes you post quite decent stuff, why do you return to your flame(bait)ing habits, like in the last post so often?

Just because it was proclaimed "legal", it's still a valid position to call the use of "optimised" clients unfair. It will not change anything yet in regards of past credits, but it's still a valid position, shared by me btw, and the constant screaming in big red letters at anyone daring to have this position doesn't make you more likeable, or your position more valid for me.

Why can't you just accept that these two position exist, both have good arguments, it's been decided by the powers that be that you won, that claiming more than usual was not illegal, but that doesn't alter my opinion about it's fairness.

I won't be scramed down by you to hold this position, I won't be intimidated by this constant abuse, and I won't just be silented by those flames. I won't accept the (pretended?) thin-skinnedness of you, as it's imho only used to silence other opinions.
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Message 28672 - Posted: 29 Sep 2006, 13:55:34 UTC - in response to Message 28671.  
Last modified: 29 Sep 2006, 14:05:33 UTC

snip usual flaim(bait)ing by Jose in big bold letters

Jose,

sometimes you post quite decent stuff, why do you return to your flame(bait)ing habits, like in the last post so often?

Just because it was proclaimed "legal", it's still a valid position to call the use of "optimised" clients unfair. It will not change anything yet in regards of past credits, but it's still a valid position, shared by me btw, and the constant screaming in big red letters at anyone daring to have this position doesn't make you more likeable, or your position more valid for me.

Why can't you just accept that these two position exist, both have good arguments, it's been decided by the powers that be that you won, that claiming more than usual was not illegal, but that doesn't alter my opinion about it's fairness.

I won't be scramed down by you to hold this position, I won't be intimidated by this constant abuse, and I won't just be silented by those flames. I won't accept the (pretended?) thin-skinnedness of you, as it's imho only used to silence other opinions.


I will answer your first question when you ask Biggles why he keeps his baseless attacks on XS.

I am not screaming: If I used red it was to make sure people saw what I said: The unintended consequence of XS leaving its monogamous relationship with Rosetta is that XS is spreading its wings in other projects in which many of the people that slandered us participate.

They see themselves competing and loosing ground to XS. And that scares them: XS is going to beat them at their projects, with multiple quorums and using non opti clients. They will have no excuse for their whining now.





This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
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Message 28673 - Posted: 29 Sep 2006, 13:55:39 UTC - in response to Message 28671.  
Last modified: 29 Sep 2006, 14:03:57 UTC

Self Edit Double post


This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
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Message 28674 - Posted: 29 Sep 2006, 14:22:33 UTC - in response to Message 28672.  

I will answer your first question when you ask Biggles why he keeps his baseless attacks on XS.

You keep on attacking percieved attackers, and will be attaced for such percieved baseless attacs.
I am not screaming: If I used red it was to make sure people saw what I said:
You screamed. Full stop. The use of extra bold and coloured letters is just that.
The unintended consequence of XS leaving its monogamous relationship with Rosetta is that XS is spreading its wings in other projects in which many of the people that slandered us participate.
They see themselves competing and loosing ground to XS. And that scares them: XS is going to beat them at their projects, with multiple quorums and using non opti clients. They will have no excuse for their whining now.

That's no problem with most of us. It's fine if other teams could catch up with us. It's good for the competition, and it's good for the science. We will sooner or later be cought by SETI.USA, that's a simple fact, I may want it more later, but if they succeed naxt year, so be it.

If you really crunch more, you deserve more. If your team really crunches more, it deserves more. It was only that this was not possible to see in the old credit system, as credits were not related to crunched work.
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Message 28676 - Posted: 29 Sep 2006, 15:16:56 UTC - in response to Message 28674.  

I will answer your first question when you ask Biggles why he keeps his baseless attacks on XS.

You keep on attacking percieved attackers, and will be attaced for such percieved baseless attacs.
I am not screaming: If I used red it was to make sure people saw what I said:
You screamed. Full stop. The use of extra bold and coloured letters is just that.
The unintended consequence of XS leaving its monogamous relationship with Rosetta is that XS is spreading its wings in other projects in which many of the people that slandered us participate.
They see themselves competing and loosing ground to XS. And that scares them: XS is going to beat them at their projects, with multiple quorums and using non opti clients. They will have no excuse for their whining now.

That's no problem with most of us. It's fine if other teams could catch up with us. It's good for the competition, and it's good for the science. We will sooner or later be cought by SETI.USA, that's a simple fact, I may want it more later, but if they succeed naxt year, so be it.

If you really crunch more, you deserve more. If your team really crunches more, it deserves more. It was only that this was not possible to see in the old credit system, as credits were not related to crunched work.


Saenger: Do you really believe ANY team here crunched more than XtremeSystems?

This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
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Message 28677 - Posted: 29 Sep 2006, 15:48:54 UTC - in response to Message 28676.  

Saenger: Do you really believe ANY team here crunched more than XtremeSystems?

No, but you didn't crunch as much as your credits show compared to normal crunchers (and the current credit system). That's why I really didn't understand your vehement resistance against a fair, comparable credit system for the past.
The use of the "opt." client granted more credit for the same amount of science as the use of the normal one, that's an undisputed fact. You claim that your team used them in toto (which I very much doubt, but the big farmers did afaik), so you got more granted then normal. I can't say how much, whether I have to reduce 30%, 50% or 66%, whether I have to reduce 10%, 25% or as well 66% from SETI.Germany as a team (nothing from me as a person btw), or what to do with other teams/individuals to know what they really did. The credits with the old system were plain random, no comparsion possible.
The possible straightening of this is history by now, you, as part of your vocal minority, won, I can't change anything any more, but I will still remember why you have so many credits, and no red, bold, overzized letters will make me prostrate before you.
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Message 28678 - Posted: 29 Sep 2006, 16:03:06 UTC - in response to Message 28677.  
Last modified: 29 Sep 2006, 16:03:58 UTC

Saenger: Do you really believe ANY team here crunched more than XtremeSystems?

No, but you didn't crunch as much as your credits show compared to normal crunchers (and the current credit system). That's why I really didn't understand your vehement resistance against a fair, comparable credit system for the past.
The use of the "opt." client granted more credit for the same amount of science as the use of the normal one, that's an undisputed fact. You claim that your team used them in toto (which I very much doubt, but the big farmers did afaik), so you got more granted then normal. I can't say how much, whether I have to reduce 30%, 50% or 66%, whether I have to reduce 10%, 25% or as well 66% from SETI.Germany as a team (nothing from me as a person btw), or what to do with other teams/individuals to know what they really did. The credits with the old system were plain random, no comparsion possible.
The possible straightening of this is history by now, you, as part of your vocal minority, won, I can't change anything any more, but I will still remember why you have so many credits, and no red, bold, overzized letters will make me prostrate before you.



First of all: absent divinity: no one needs to prostrate himself before me.
(Talk about an offensive idea: a man talking about prostrating himself to another.)

Second: XS had so many credits because following the rules , crunching 24/7 , using Rosetta-dedicated high end computers we crunched more credits: no ifs or buts.

Any attempt at rewriting history (Specially now after the revelation that many of the ones that slandered/libeled XS used optis, invited others to use optis and had the opti files linked to in their team MBs) cannot change that.


This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
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Message 28679 - Posted: 29 Sep 2006, 16:13:47 UTC
Last modified: 29 Sep 2006, 16:14:16 UTC

That's your version of the past. I really don't know how you came to the conclusion that it's the right one. Mine is different.
My definition of fairness is obviously different as well.
We won't agree her afaik, but your constant screaming doesn't make this settle at all, you constantly fuel the flames with it. IMHO in ~50-75% of your posts a disgusting troll, and in the other ones a nice person. If you will stop your trolling, I think we can get along quite well, but your screaming just doesn't fit in my definition of netiquette.
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Message 28680 - Posted: 29 Sep 2006, 16:14:01 UTC
Last modified: 29 Sep 2006, 16:14:30 UTC

Currently, XtremeSystems as a team has contributed 8.8% of the offical credits. As Saenger says, it's hard to determine how much it WOULD BE if the actual work was rewarded, as per the current credit system. All we can (almost certainly) say is that it's less than that in actual work [unless there's a large number XtremeSystems users using Linux and not using optimized BOINC version(s) - I don't know if there is or not].

Free-DC is second place, with around 6.3% of the overall credit in Rosetta. Most likely, this team has ALSO used optimized clients - it's fairly clear to see the curve that bends quite dramatically around the third week of August when the new credit system was introduced - so either a lot of team-members of this team left Rosetta simply because they felt like leaving, or the credit system changed the amount of credit awarded for the same amount of work [or some combination thereof].

Team Canada, in 6th place with 1.5% of the total credits is, by the looks of things, using a regular client, as the credit is rising at roughly the same rate before and after the change, [and they are currently generating double the amount of credits of the XtremeSystems - but it will take quite some time to catch up].

One of the points here is of course that there are some teams who (from what I can determine) aren't using optimized clients to achieve a high score, and there are some teams that appear to have done so.

But the vast majority of work is not done by ExtremeSystems - I don't have a number for how many members of Rosetta are also members of a team, I don't know where to get such a number. I for one isn't member of a team - most of the people who are above me in my country-stats are, so presumable a lot of "high crunchers" are members of a team or another [assuming you classify 30th place in the UK as high!] There's no doubt that people who are members of teams are big contributors to Rosetta... I only found one other non-team cruncher within the ten or so around my place in the country stats...

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Mats

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