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Astro
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Message 27896 - Posted: 20 Sep 2006, 23:45:42 UTC
Last modified: 20 Sep 2006, 23:46:17 UTC

As requested by me in this post I\'m starting this thread to get your opinion on Resetting the scoreboard to complete the \"levelling\" of the playing field. It\'s my opinion that if they can\'t/won\'t backdate to the beginning then the only other way is to do a complete reset. They could probably do this with the effective date of August 24th 2006? What do you think? Please voice your opinions in a kind manner. NOTE: I haven\'t formed an opinion on this, don\'t know if it\'s even possible, but it\'s something new to talk about.

tony
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Message 27898 - Posted: 20 Sep 2006, 23:59:21 UTC
Last modified: 20 Sep 2006, 23:59:57 UTC

To also carry over from the other thread to this more on-topic thread.

Backdating if it could have been done would only have gone back to February 2006. That would not be far enough back to erradicate the skewing of the scoreboards, as optimized third party Boinc clients have been available since atleast May 31st 2005(windows varieties, Linux dates back much farther), and so ever since the start of Rosetta. So, Backdating to Feb would only be a partial measure.

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Message 27899 - Posted: 21 Sep 2006, 0:16:05 UTC

you know, There\'s an analogy here between credits and taxes. Some are in favor of increased taxes, but only as long as someone else is paying for them (I.E tax the rich). It\'s easy to get those bills made into law. As about Backdating where 90% of the population would not see a drop, but might even see a boost in credit totals if they apply the same credit methodology, and they\'re all in favor of it and cry \"yeah, a level playing field is important\". Credit resetting isn\'t going to be popular as it will be paid for by everyone with the loss of credit (or displacement of credit to a different project for total, I.E Rosetta I), but it\'s the only way to ensure a complete level playing field. Are you willing to pay for it???
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Message 27900 - Posted: 21 Sep 2006, 0:19:14 UTC

If you\'re not willing to pay for it, then all we can do is, what is happening now, and that\'s to live with it and wait until little by little the disparity is lessened. Crunch Rosetta for Rosetta\'s own merits.
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Message 27901 - Posted: 21 Sep 2006, 0:21:00 UTC

Tony:
At best even by your logic, you would never have exact numbers.
Unfortunately they\'ve shot themselves in the foot over this and there is no clean way out that I can see.
I also understand that with the new systemn there is some sort of averaging going on and if that is true you still aren\'t seeing what each persons real output is.
Then you have the issue of the mac users that are getting killed with the new system. Backdate all of their credits and you\'ll need a magnifying glass just to see them.
Imagine your some mac user that had 4-6 machines running Rosetta from Jan to August then when the new system came into place left at seeing that the developers decided not to spend the time or money to work on a mac solution because the new macs coming out are using Intel chips.
This guy would see his credits almost zeroed. Can you imagine the anger?
I don\'t even want to think about that scenario.
You do that to someone who is crazed over credits and you better have Dr. Baker include the cost of a bodyguard into his budget.<BG>
No, I am not a mac user..LOLOL
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Message 27902 - Posted: 21 Sep 2006, 0:25:07 UTC

I wish you\'d move your other post over here. It showed the passion that you had an money you spent and was very relevant to this topic.

tony
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Message 27911 - Posted: 21 Sep 2006, 4:02:18 UTC

Not with a 10 foot pole Tony. I\'m here because I want to learn more about how the science works, contribute my machines spare time, and help mankind cure disease.

I care not about credits.
If having a DC project with BOINC is of interest to you, with volunteer or cloud computing resources, but have no time for the BOINC learning curve,
use a hosting service that understands BOINC projects: http://DeepSci.com
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Message 27918 - Posted: 21 Sep 2006, 6:33:50 UTC - in response to Message 27902.  
Last modified: 21 Sep 2006, 6:48:43 UTC

I wish you\'d move your other post over here. It showed the passion that you had an money you spent and was very relevant to this topic.

tony

As you asked, here\'s a copy/paste of it:
Speaking just for myself, I would have no issue with backdating my credits to day one.That is me speaking strickly for myself and not for XS.
Starting from zero says to those that what you did was worthless and insults their effort.
Sort of like:\" Up till now this was all a trial, now we\'ll do the real thing\"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I hope everyone noticed, my first thought on backdating was voiced in this thread, and that I voted NO because it wouldn\'t do what it was intended.

Also, I made no mention of my position on a complete reset. I just wanted to show that a complete reset is the ONLY way. I don\'t think it\'s been ruled out as a point of discussion, so we could discuss it if someone wants to. Just keep it clean, please. We\'d need a new thread of course.

tony


Tony:
A complete reset may be the ONLY way if you want to only count the work that was done from today onward but what does that say to the people that busted their backside and incurred huge expenses during the first 8 months of the year?
It says what was done is worthless and they\'re lot of people, myself included, who would scream to the heavens were that done.
JUST me, one little guy: My monthly electric bill was an additional $150.00-$200.00 higher during that period, all atributable to running the extra PC\'s for rosetta. We\'ll forget the $15,000.00 worth of equipment that I put solely on this project during that time.
If the developers want to say that my work was not worthy, at the very least cut me a check for the extra electric that I used just for them.
That works out to app $1400.00 for 8 months.

Let me add this to that thought:
I mention the amounts of equipment and dollars for electric involved to make a simple point: I was really into this and it wasn\'t for points. I\'m not a wealthy person by any means. That DX3600 system was built from the proceeds of a VERY lucky night on ebay where I made $4400.00 plus on one buy/sell and decided that I would build myself a top system with the winnings.
The comittment to rum the 4-6 machines during the first 8 months of this year was not an easy one as I really didn\'t have the extra cash to cover the additional electric BUT I so beleived in the Rosetta program that I made that comittment and cut expenditures in other areas of my life to be able to do so.
Yes, this was my chioce made with free will but it was also with the unsaid understanding that someone wouldn\'t come along later and diminish that comitment by suggesting that the project essentially be restarted at some future point.
We all do what we do for different reasons, mine was pure love of what the program was trying to do. If I get a little over the top, maybe you\'ll understand that you can only grow to hate that which you have loved.
These people let us all down by their lack of effective management and the inability to just open their ears and eyes to what was being said.
All I ever wanted was to help them as nutty as that may sound to you.
The first time I wrote to David Kim I ended the email with this line and it wasn\'t a hustle, it was exactly how I felt:
\"Help us to help you\"
He just never heard the truth that was behind those words.


This is added app 3 minutes after the above post is made:
I refresh the page and here we go with the childish games of the pluses and minuses. I\'d said earlier that if this crap didn\'t stop I would retaliate and all I can think is the people who are doing this are trying to push me over the edge..So be it, just remember that you started this crap not me.
____________


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Message 27925 - Posted: 21 Sep 2006, 8:16:52 UTC
Last modified: 21 Sep 2006, 8:18:03 UTC

Tony

Since I can hide in a Trappist monastery I can say I do favor Zeroing out back to day 1. It is the only fair thing to do for the crunchers who have powerful machines (single or many)

Man let the kentfields, conroes, high end Macs, AMDs rip.!!! Let the powerfull RAM/chip/mobo combo rip!!! Over clocked or not, these machines have the possibility of taking such a huge lead so fast, the people that claim they have no chance, will have a smaller chance. (Since I have asked not to mention any project but Rosetta , I am willing to email you data from other projects on that issue .)

But let\'s not delude ourselves: The Distributed Computing psychology/sociology is one where credits = your personal and your team\'s worth. And the reaction to zeroing out will be nasty, very nasty/


Again, Zeroing out is a fair solution only if its a real zeroing out. Archive everything and everyone starts at zero.

Do that and then hide.


BTW: I speak for me , myself and I alone . I am not the spokesman for any team on this issue
This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato
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Message 27944 - Posted: 21 Sep 2006, 10:00:18 UTC

Copied from the other

This is rather an enigmatic situation, there are valid points for each solution but is there really a totally satisfactory solution to all involved ? The answer has to be no, which is perhaps why the devs have simply kept it \"as is\".

We know the points system was corrupted in Boinc long before Rosetta, the obvious solution now there is a \"fair\" system...cancel them out and restart which seem`s logical. This negates all the previous work and dedication of people to the project, people who had given but no longer will be recognised at all. This solution was my immediate and fairly thought out, I did not see the pitfalls.Dedicated people gave $millions to those first 9-11 months are we to simply forget that ? Is re-running the race after some participants retired fair ?

Backdating a revised figure either up or down.

Since I called for others to also take up crunch3r files this would appear to me to seem very fair. Unfortunately the Devs now say for whatever reason, it technically cannot be done. There are other points against this solution but it`s a waste of time even thinking on it, apparently.

A few months ago, Jose was the loudest voice against the corrupt Boinc system, his idea of getting a credit system away from the Boinc client was taken up eventually. I think Jose would have liked to have seen Rosetta away from Boinc altogether and he put in an awful amount of work for the project away from the computer wu side. He was extremely dedicated and thought very highly of the work being done.

So I will agree on a lot of points being made by all sides but as I see it there is no solution. Boinc is still corrupt perhaps not here but in other projects, the cross project points are also a laughing stock and are not credible nor have they been since the first instance of an opti.

I do wonder how long it will take the argument to fade, when current points are 10% of the totals less, more ? I don`t know.

Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.
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Message 27952 - Posted: 21 Sep 2006, 11:45:09 UTC

retrospective actions are bad, especially this far gone. leave the old credits as they are and just continue on with the (much better) current system. (hopefully we can also stop the incessant bitching about credit, please please please.)
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Message 27954 - Posted: 21 Sep 2006, 11:57:21 UTC - in response to Message 27918.  

I wish you\'d move your other post over here. It showed the passion that you had an money you spent and was very relevant to this topic.

tony

As you asked, here\'s a copy/paste of it:
Speaking just for myself, I would have no issue with backdating my credits to day one.That is me speaking strickly for myself and not for XS.
Starting from zero says to those that what you did was worthless and insults their effort.
Sort of like:\" Up till now this was all a trial, now we\'ll do the real thing\"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I hope everyone noticed, my first thought on backdating was voiced in this thread, and that I voted NO because it wouldn\'t do what it was intended.

Also, I made no mention of my position on a complete reset. I just wanted to show that a complete reset is the ONLY way. I don\'t think it\'s been ruled out as a point of discussion, so we could discuss it if someone wants to. Just keep it clean, please. We\'d need a new thread of course.

tony


Tony:
A complete reset may be the ONLY way if you want to only count the work that was done from today onward but what does that say to the people that busted their backside and incurred huge expenses during the first 8 months of the year?
It says what was done is worthless and they\'re lot of people, myself included, who would scream to the heavens were that done.
JUST me, one little guy: My monthly electric bill was an additional $150.00-$200.00 higher during that period, all atributable to running the extra PC\'s for rosetta. We\'ll forget the $15,000.00 worth of equipment that I put solely on this project during that time.
If the developers want to say that my work was not worthy, at the very least cut me a check for the extra electric that I used just for them.
That works out to app $1400.00 for 8 months.

Let me add this to that thought:
I mention the amounts of equipment and dollars for electric involved to make a simple point: I was really into this and it wasn\'t for points. I\'m not a wealthy person by any means. That DX3600 system was built from the proceeds of a VERY lucky night on ebay where I made $4400.00 plus on one buy/sell and decided that I would build myself a top system with the winnings.
The comittment to rum the 4-6 machines during the first 8 months of this year was not an easy one as I really didn\'t have the extra cash to cover the additional electric BUT I so beleived in the Rosetta program that I made that comittment and cut expenditures in other areas of my life to be able to do so.
Yes, this was my chioce made with free will but it was also with the unsaid understanding that someone wouldn\'t come along later and diminish that comitment by suggesting that the project essentially be restarted at some future point.
We all do what we do for different reasons, mine was pure love of what the program was trying to do. If I get a little over the top, maybe you\'ll understand that you can only grow to hate that which you have loved.
These people let us all down by their lack of effective management and the inability to just open their ears and eyes to what was being said.
All I ever wanted was to help them as nutty as that may sound to you.
The first time I wrote to David Kim I ended the email with this line and it wasn\'t a hustle, it was exactly how I felt:
\"Help us to help you\"
He just never heard the truth that was behind those words.


This is added app 3 minutes after the above post is made:
I refresh the page and here we go with the childish games of the pluses and minuses. I\'d said earlier that if this crap didn\'t stop I would retaliate and all I can think is the people who are doing this are trying to push me over the edge..So be it, just remember that you started this crap not me.
____________



I agree with you

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Message 28136 - Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 0:28:31 UTC



WHAT !!! another thread about back dating and zeroing out credits ????


Tony - you are INSANE! (and you MUST have an opinion about this or you would not be still bringing it up) - and this is NOT something new to talk about. This has been re-hashed and voted against by the project devs.


NO
NO
NO


and H*** NO!


If this happened, not only would the project loose those that have crunched, but it would loose out on potential crunchers.

And I would make it a mission to make sure that this happened here- I would post in every single project as often as nessesary to the way the project treated those that contributed to the project\'s current success.

You would see this project die.
SETI.USA


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Jose

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Message 28153 - Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 7:27:16 UTC - in response to Message 28136.  



WHAT !!! another thread about back dating and zeroing out credits ????


Tony - you are INSANE! (and you MUST have an opinion about this or you would not be still bringing it up) - and this is NOT something new to talk about. This has been re-hashed and voted against by the project devs.


NO
NO
NO


and H*** NO!


If this happened, not only would the project loose those that have crunched, but it would loose out on potential crunchers.

And I would make it a mission to make sure that this happened here- I would post in every single project as often as nessesary to the way the project treated those that contributed to the project\'s current success.

You would see this project die.


Kevint:

1- Tony is signing up for the equivalent of witness protection as your reaction will be the most rational of them. I know of people that should the credits be zeroed out, will hunt for the people responsible and will string them by their toes.

2- Man to think I was ready to offer you a job as the one supplying the tranquilizer darts in case of a riot . ( Joking Joking Joking)

Your passionate position on zeroing out is dully noted. :)




Ps: Man, If I keep this pattern of good work I may be offered to be a moderator.
This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato
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Message 28167 - Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 13:01:54 UTC

OK I\'m awake now.

1) I don\'t remember it being \"discussed\". I remember one user asked about it in a now deleted thread and was roasted over an open flame. If memory serves, it was Carls\' thread \"I\'m collecting my toys and going home\" thread(or something like that) that came out within hours of the new credit system leave rosetta and coming here.

Perhaps the passage of time will allow for a real discussion on the subject?

2) I don\'t remember the Admins ruling this option out.

3) It might not be that difficult to do. Here\'s how I think it could be done.

a)Create a new project on the servers, and name it \"Rosetta I\", then rename the current project \"Rosetta II\".

b) Use the archives and move all credit data dated prior to 24 August 2006 to Rosetta I. Leave all data from that point forward on Rosetta II.

c) Contact stats site and give them the new and old URL\'s for the stats folder for their dumps.

Tada, I think it would be done.

All the credit wouldn\'t then be deleted, it would be fully represented for what it is, and that\'s the data/credit collected with the previous credit system. Top teams would still maintain their position indefinitely and won\'t drop as they appear to be doing now.

tony
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Message 28168 - Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 13:16:26 UTC

< Wonders who has had a word with Tony >

If memory serves, it was Carls\' thread \"I\'m collecting my toys and going home\" thread


You know I`ll bite on that Tony, it was unnecessary. I left because of reasons not directly pertaining to the new credit system.
Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.
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Message 28169 - Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 13:18:41 UTC - in response to Message 28168.  
Last modified: 22 Sep 2006, 13:19:50 UTC

< Wonders who has had a word with Tony >

If memory serves, it was Carls\' thread \"I\'m collecting my toys and going home\" thread


You know I`ll bite on that Tony, it was unnecessary. I left because of reasons not directly pertaining to the new credit system.

yeah, I know, but I honestly can\'t remember the \"exact\" title, and was injecting a snidge of humor. I don\'t even remember if it was your thread or not, but I think it was.
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Message 28173 - Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 14:47:16 UTC


Tony, given that the whole of Boinc credits are skewed to some degree, would you be happy if what you are designing (once individual projects sort out a no fiddle accounting system) be applied across the whole of the Boinc network ?
Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.
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Message 28174 - Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 14:51:36 UTC - in response to Message 28167.  
Last modified: 22 Sep 2006, 14:53:45 UTC

OK I\'m awake now.

1) I don\'t remember it being \"discussed\". I remember one user asked about it in a now deleted thread and was roasted over an open flame. If memory serves, it was Carls\' thread \"I\'m collecting my toys and going home\" thread(or something like that) that came out within hours of the new credit system leave rosetta and coming here.

Perhaps the passage of time will allow for a real discussion on the subject?

2) I don\'t remember the Admins ruling this option out.

3) It might not be that difficult to do. Here\'s how I think it could be done.

a)Create a new project on the servers, and name it \"Rosetta I\", then rename the current project \"Rosetta II\".

b) Use the archives and move all credit data dated prior to 24 August 2006 to Rosetta I. Leave all data from that point forward on Rosetta II.

c) Contact stats site and give them the new and old URL\'s for the stats folder for their dumps.

Tada, I think it would be done.

All the credit wouldn\'t then be deleted, it would be fully represented for what it is, and that\'s the data/credit collected with the previous credit system. Top teams would still maintain their position indefinitely and won\'t drop as they appear to be doing now.

tony



Sorry Tony :

2 (b) is backdating and not zeroing out. Yellow flag given for trying to revive the backdating issue.

But admiration is granted for trying to revive a dead horse

Also David Kim told us that the archives you and some of the backdaters claim exist no longer exist. So the issue is not that simple.


This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato
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Message 28176 - Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 14:58:45 UTC - in response to Message 28174.  

OK I\'m awake now.

1) I don\'t remember it being \"discussed\". I remember one user asked about it in a now deleted thread and was roasted over an open flame. If memory serves, it was Carls\' thread \"I\'m collecting my toys and going home\" thread(or something like that) that came out within hours of the new credit system leave rosetta and coming here.

Perhaps the passage of time will allow for a real discussion on the subject?

2) I don\'t remember the Admins ruling this option out.

3) It might not be that difficult to do. Here\'s how I think it could be done.

a)Create a new project on the servers, and name it \"Rosetta I\", then rename the current project \"Rosetta II\".

b) Use the archives and move all credit data dated prior to 24 August 2006 to Rosetta I. Leave all data from that point forward on Rosetta II.

c) Contact stats site and give them the new and old URL\'s for the stats folder for their dumps.

Tada, I think it would be done.

All the credit wouldn\'t then be deleted, it would be fully represented for what it is, and that\'s the data/credit collected with the previous credit system. Top teams would still maintain their position indefinitely and won\'t drop as they appear to be doing now.

tony



Sorry Tony :

2 (b) is backdating and not zeroing out. Yellow flag given for trying to revive the backdating issue.

But admiration is granted for trying to revive a dead horse

Also David Kim told us that the archives you and some of the backdaters claim exist no longer exist. So the issue is not that simple.




[ ] You have read the post.

Tony speaks about the 24th August when the new credit system went into effect and not about February 2006 (which was the possible starting date to backdate). He also does not suggest recalculating the credits (backdating) but to seperate the credits until August, 24th 2006 and after.

This is possible for sure but I don\'t think it will help the project.
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