Tells us your thoughts on granting credit for large protein, long-running tasks

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Joseph Francis

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Message 97304 - Posted: 9 Jun 2020, 11:39:00 UTC
Last modified: 9 Jun 2020, 11:42:33 UTC

I don't care if its fast or slow every bit helps anyway.
Science computing isn't about status or credit its about working together as a community.
The only realistic benefit of credit status is what your machine can do; that others can reference to develop projects that bring balance to the evolution of technological trends and what legacies still exist needing support..
I haven't come here for a reputation nor status I came here to help solve a problem.
When the problem is solved I would look as the community as a whole not just the fastest and biggest.
I think status means little compared to participation.
I have done in another project 1 years worth of work credit in 48 hours in comparison to my participation of years.
But I could be absent for many months usually participating in other projects or playing Blizzard games
in the SETI forum they will see that and you won't get voice for credit you get voice for participation.
I don't do SETI much if they did find something it'd be watered down or banned from public notice.
This is my view that the more smaller fish the bigger the stock.
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Message 97313 - Posted: 9 Jun 2020, 21:17:53 UTC - in response to Message 97304.  
Last modified: 9 Jun 2020, 21:18:14 UTC

I don't care if its fast or slow every bit helps anyway.
Science computing isn't about status or credit its about working together as a community.
The only realistic benefit of credit status is what your machine can do; that others can reference to develop projects that bring balance to the evolution of technological trends and what legacies still exist needing support..
I haven't come here for a reputation nor status I came here to help solve a problem.
When the problem is solved I would look as the community as a whole not just the fastest and biggest.
I think status means little compared to participation.
I have done in another project 1 years worth of work credit in 48 hours in comparison to my participation of years.
But I could be absent for many months usually participating in other projects or playing Blizzard games
in the SETI forum they will see that and you won't get voice for credit you get voice for participation.
I don't do SETI much if they did find something it'd be watered down or banned from public notice.
This is my view that the more smaller fish the bigger the stock.


There is alot of chaff to sort thru to find the right piece of data that helps solve the problem, all computers that help are needed from the industrial sized ones to the slowest pc that can finish a workunit in the time allotted, they ALL contribute!!! People bring what they can to the table and all are welcome, not EVERY pc ever made can help HERE though and that's a problem for some people but comes with the territory when you do things for the Science. Not all of us are smart enough to be Scientists so we help the people who are by contributing in the ways we can.
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Message 97901 - Posted: 4 Jul 2020, 14:17:13 UTC - in response to Message 97313.  
Last modified: 4 Jul 2020, 14:26:01 UTC

I absolutely agree that every little helps. However, it's not true that BOINC should be running on all computers where it possibly can.

Rosetta at home is a special project in that anybody can meet the 72-hour deadline, because you control the target CPU runtime in the project settings.

However, I urge everybody to observe the performance/watt that their hardware can deliver and make rational decisions based on that. For example, if you ran on a Pentium 4 (underperforming even an Atom or an SBC), that would be a total waste of electricity, just contributing to global warming. For the same power consumption, a Ryzen could simulate multiple orders of magnitude more decoys. Just for the cost of the excess electricity, you could buy a better performing SBC in half a year or an Android TV box in a couple of months.

This is not the same as saying that you may only contribute if you have the latest and greatest, or that you need to buy something very expensive. For example I also run legacy ultra-low power portables that are still pretty competitive in performance/watt, along with cheap singe board computers, Android TV boxes and phones.

From the PC side, a Ryzen 3700X doesn't cost much, but a second hand 2700 model with a lowly A320M motherboard for half the price would also give an acceptable RAC/W.

I'm not saying that we should throw away all of our legacy hardware as toxic waste - they may still be used for cases where you aren't loading their CPU a lot, like for basic office tasks, chatting or as a thin client (although an SBC is also an option for this).
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Message 97905 - Posted: 4 Jul 2020, 17:02:42 UTC - in response to Message 97901.  

I absolutely agree that every little helps. However, it's not true that BOINC should be running on all computers where it possibly can.

Rosetta at home is a special project in that anybody can meet the 72-hour deadline, because you control the target CPU runtime in the project settings.

However, I urge everybody to observe the performance/watt that their hardware can deliver and make rational decisions based on that. For example, if you ran on a Pentium 4 (underperforming even an Atom or an SBC), that would be a total waste of electricity, just contributing to global warming. For the same power consumption, a Ryzen could simulate multiple orders of magnitude more decoys. Just for the cost of the excess electricity, you could buy a better performing SBC in half a year or an Android TV box in a couple of months.

This is not the same as saying that you may only contribute if you have the latest and greatest, or that you need to buy something very expensive. For example I also run legacy ultra-low power portables that are still pretty competitive in performance/watt, along with cheap singe board computers, Android TV boxes and phones.

From the PC side, a Ryzen 3700X doesn't cost much, but a second hand 2700 model with a lowly A320M motherboard for half the price would also give an acceptable RAC/W.

I'm not saying that we should throw away all of our legacy hardware as toxic waste - they may still be used for cases where you aren't loading their CPU a lot, like for basic office tasks, chatting or as a thin client (although an SBC is also an option for this).


I think you are forgetting that some of us pay ALOT less for electricity than you probably do, according to the Internet, yeah yeah, in the US I pay @67% LESS per KWH than you do. That makes older hardware more cost effective that it would be where you are. https://www.bing.com/search?q=electricity+rate+in+Hungary&form=QBLH&sp=-1&ghc=1&pq=electricity+rate+in+hungary&sc=1-27&qs=n&sk=&cvid=FD35A718A9C844E5B15E9A11895246BD
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Message 97906 - Posted: 4 Jul 2020, 17:14:15 UTC - in response to Message 97905.  

that - and plenty of cities don't rely on fossil fuels for energy.
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bkil
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Message 97907 - Posted: 4 Jul 2020, 21:06:21 UTC - in response to Message 97905.  
Last modified: 4 Jul 2020, 21:12:41 UTC

Where are you paying such a low rate? According to my reading, electricity costs the same in the USA on average ($0.13):
* https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/
* https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Electricity_price_statistics

Actually, electricity is considered inexpensive around here (probably too cheap), around 10 cents EUR/kWh without any kind of subsidy (but you can even negotiate something like 33% off for certain use cases). It is much more expensive in Germany where they have a much higher proportion of renewables.

But anyway, there surely exist countries where electricity can be had for cheap (although, energy is never cheap, usually it is just some form of subsidy), but the message is the same: always do a back of the envelope calculation to sanity check whether a given rig is worth it. It's pretty simple to throw together a LibreOffice Calc sheet with all the formulae and you can plug in any electricity rate you desire.

The usual takeaway is that it is a good idea to do a total cost of ownership calculation for a given timeframe (like 3-5 years) that includes purchasing the hardware, operational costs and then at the end of the timeframe just sell the box while it still has let's say half the value to purchase a much more efficient rig at that point in time.

Even if you have made a great deal on electricity, hardware is also usually less expensive in the USA, so overall some of the conclusions would still be true in your case. If you still don't believe me, just state a legacy hardware you would like to operate, your annual budget and electricity rate and we can do a quick fact check for you.

This is something we've discussed and researched a lot in the thread for The most efficient cruncher rig possible

By the way, we did consider outsourcing our computing to countries with a lower electricity rate, but the benefit isn't that great compared to the operational nightmare (BOINC as a service anyone?). But I don't think we would be sending the right message if we outright stated that "people from your country shouldn't participate because you use fossil fuels and/or your electricity prices are not the lowest possible and/or your country isn't a signatory of the Kyoto Protocol".
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Message 97908 - Posted: 4 Jul 2020, 21:59:20 UTC - in response to Message 97907.  

Where are you paying such a low rate? According to my reading, electricity costs the same in the USA on average ($0.13):
* https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/
* https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Electricity_price_statistics

Actually, electricity is considered inexpensive around here (probably too cheap), around 10 cents EUR/kWh without any kind of subsidy (but you can even negotiate something like 33% off for certain use cases). It is much more expensive in Germany where they have a much higher proportion of renewables.

But anyway, there surely exist countries where electricity can be had for cheap (although, energy is never cheap, usually it is just some form of subsidy), but the message is the same: always do a back of the envelope calculation to sanity check whether a given rig is worth it. It's pretty simple to throw together a LibreOffice Calc sheet with all the formulae and you can plug in any electricity rate you desire.

The usual takeaway is that it is a good idea to do a total cost of ownership calculation for a given timeframe (like 3-5 years) that includes purchasing the hardware, operational costs and then at the end of the timeframe just sell the box while it still has let's say half the value to purchase a much more efficient rig at that point in time.

Even if you have made a great deal on electricity, hardware is also usually less expensive in the USA, so overall some of the conclusions would still be true in your case. If you still don't believe me, just state a legacy hardware you would like to operate, your annual budget and electricity rate and we can do a quick fact check for you.

This is something we've discussed and researched a lot in the thread for The most efficient cruncher rig possible

By the way, we did consider outsourcing our computing to countries with a lower electricity rate, but the benefit isn't that great compared to the operational nightmare (BOINC as a service anyone?). But I don't think we would be sending the right message if we outright stated that "people from your country shouldn't participate because you use fossil fuels and/or your electricity prices are not the lowest possible and/or your country isn't a signatory of the Kyoto Protocol".


Because energy prices are regulated by different Agencies in the US and priced to prevent some company from making a million dollars off of you and I just because we use more than theaverage homeowner. My rate is actualy just under half the rate you posted above. Add in those people who use solar panels to offset their electric bills and some people little to nothing for electricity.
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Message 97917 - Posted: 5 Jul 2020, 3:30:06 UTC - in response to Message 97908.  

Where are you paying such a low rate? According to my reading, electricity costs the same in the USA on average ($0.13):
* https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/
* https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Electricity_price_statistics

Actually, electricity is considered inexpensive around here (probably too cheap), around 10 cents EUR/kWh without any kind of subsidy (but you can even negotiate something like 33% off for certain use cases). It is much more expensive in Germany where they have a much higher proportion of renewables.

But anyway, there surely exist countries where electricity can be had for cheap (although, energy is never cheap, usually it is just some form of subsidy), but the message is the same: always do a back of the envelope calculation to sanity check whether a given rig is worth it. It's pretty simple to throw together a LibreOffice Calc sheet with all the formulae and you can plug in any electricity rate you desire.

The usual takeaway is that it is a good idea to do a total cost of ownership calculation for a given timeframe (like 3-5 years) that includes purchasing the hardware, operational costs and then at the end of the timeframe just sell the box while it still has let's say half the value to purchase a much more efficient rig at that point in time.

Even if you have made a great deal on electricity, hardware is also usually less expensive in the USA, so overall some of the conclusions would still be true in your case. If you still don't believe me, just state a legacy hardware you would like to operate, your annual budget and electricity rate and we can do a quick fact check for you.

This is something we've discussed and researched a lot in the thread for The most efficient cruncher rig possible

By the way, we did consider outsourcing our computing to countries with a lower electricity rate, but the benefit isn't that great compared to the operational nightmare (BOINC as a service anyone?). But I don't think we would be sending the right message if we outright stated that "people from your country shouldn't participate because you use fossil fuels and/or your electricity prices are not the lowest possible and/or your country isn't a signatory of the Kyoto Protocol".


Because energy prices are regulated by different Agencies in the US and priced to prevent some company from making a million dollars off of you and I just because we use more than the average homeowner. My rate is actually just under half the rate you posted above. Add in those people who use solar panels to offset their electric bills and some people little to nothing for electricity.

From an environmental perspective it's a fair point, irrespective of unit costs, if we're using fossil fuels rather than renewable sources.
It's worth me bearing in mind when I next upgrade, certainly.
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bkil
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Message 97959 - Posted: 8 Jul 2020, 12:19:28 UTC - in response to Message 97908.  

Bear with me please: electricity is never free, hence you must not waste it.

Going fully renewable is fully possible as shown by Germany, but this is part of the reason of their higher energy prices.

If as a home owner you would want to go off grid (or even be a producer), you are free to install photovoltaics and a small wind turbine on the roof. However, someone is going to have to pay for installing and maintaining them, either you or your government.

They have a design life of a few decades, and if we anticipate increasing energy prices, your will probably see a return on your investment before they go bad. If you would be barely getting a return, that would mean that you have payed just the same amount on electricity as a lump sum front payment as if you had been billed monthly.

Now, considering various scenarios and/or local subsidies, you will probably pay less for your electricity overall, maybe 50% less. But this is a far cry compared to saying that my electricity is free.

And again, if in your country you also pay 30-50% less for your computing hardware, we have the same proportion that we started with and the exact same formula. If you payed 33% for electricity and 66% for hardware, the cost structure will change a bit, but I'm sure you will never arrive at a cost & investment strategy that commands for purchasing Pentium 4 computers in bulk to operate BOINC on them even if they were free, because the PV & turbine investment could had been better spent on producing points on more modern hardware.

There's maybe one exception: if for whatever reason you were producing heat with electricity (not sure why not with solar collectors, geoexchange/geothermal heat pumps or HVAC, but still) for example for bathing, sauna, doing laundry or dishes, cooking & food preservation, space heating, industrial drying etc, then a fleet of Pentium 4's will indeed produce free BOINC credits compared to a simple resistive heating element (putting the maintenance issues aside).
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Message 97966 - Posted: 8 Jul 2020, 20:38:15 UTC - in response to Message 97959.  

Bear with me please: electricity is never free, hence you must not waste it.

Going fully renewable is fully possible as shown by Germany, but this is part of the reason of their higher energy prices.

If as a home owner you would want to go off grid (or even be a producer), you are free to install photovoltaics and a small wind turbine on the roof. However, someone is going to have to pay for installing and maintaining them, either you or your government.

They have a design life of a few decades, and if we anticipate increasing energy prices, your will probably see a return on your investment before they go bad. If you would be barely getting a return, that would mean that you have payed just the same amount on electricity as a lump sum front payment as if you had been billed monthly.

Now, considering various scenarios and/or local subsidies, you will probably pay less for your electricity overall, maybe 50% less. But this is a far cry compared to saying that my electricity is free.

And again, if in your country you also pay 30-50% less for your computing hardware, we have the same proportion that we started with and the exact same formula. If you payed 33% for electricity and 66% for hardware, the cost structure will change a bit, but I'm sure you will never arrive at a cost & investment strategy that commands for purchasing Pentium 4 computers in bulk to operate BOINC on them even if they were free, because the PV & turbine investment could had been better spent on producing points on more modern hardware.

There's maybe one exception: if for whatever reason you were producing heat with electricity (not sure why not with solar collectors, geoexchange/geothermal heat pumps or HVAC, but still) for example for bathing, sauna, doing laundry or dishes, cooking & food preservation, space heating, industrial drying etc, then a fleet of Pentium 4's will indeed produce free BOINC credits compared to a simple resistive heating element (putting the maintenance issues aside).


And if you walk to work instead of drive someone has to make the food you eat, clean the air you breathe, make theclothes you wear as going naked is frowned upon, make the shoes and socks etc you wear. Someone ALSO has to make and maintain the road or path your walk on too!! Yeah we get it life is not free and someone ALWAYS has to be paid and in the end it's you and I, or our families, paying the undertaker to bury us so the worms can eat too!! The rabbit hole is VERY VERY deep if you go down it!!!
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Message 98005 - Posted: 11 Jul 2020, 13:01:49 UTC - in response to Message 97901.  

Perhaps this is a basic newbie question, but why does Rosetta@home have a 72-hour deadline on all their tasks where many other projects (WCG, Einstein@home etc) have much longer deadlines?

I have a fairly capable machine (Ryzen 5 2400G) but I only keep it on for 3-6 hours on most days. Even running Rosetta exclusively I have trouble completing tasks before their expiration. I do not have this issue with other projects.

Thanks,
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Brian Nixon

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Message 98008 - Posted: 11 Jul 2020, 13:44:04 UTC - in response to Message 98005.  

jxbock wrote:
why does Rosetta@home have a 72-hour deadline
Off-topic for this thread, but: Rosetta@home tasks are part of active research: the scientists need the results now to guide ongoing and future work. As I understand it the work units are providing answers to researchers’ “what if?” questions. They need answers quickly to know whether or not any given investigation is worth pursuing.


I have trouble completing tasks before their expiration
If BOINC is downloading more tasks than your computer can complete before their deadline, your Store at least work setting is almost definitely too high. Consider reducing it, and/or reducing the target run time from the default 8 hours per task in your Project preferences.


I do not have this issue with other projects
Other projects are not Rosetta@home; you are not comparing like with like.
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Message 98068 - Posted: 14 Jul 2020, 6:38:35 UTC - in response to Message 97901.  

I absolutely agree that every little helps. However, it's not true that BOINC should be running on all computers where it possibly can.
Rosetta at home is a special project in that anybody can meet the 72-hour deadline, because you control the target CPU runtime in the project settings.[quote]

Sure, I can complete the 72-hour deadline for any Rosetta WU, maybe 6 or 7 WUs.

But Rosetta frequently sends me more WUs than I can reasonably complete in that 72 hours. Plus, Rosetta us not the only project my computer runs.

However, Rosetta has not sent me anything for more than a week. Although for much of the past 10 days, this computer was out of commission.

Now that it's fixed, I'm getting nothing. Feast or famine with Rosetta.

C'mon, guys, send me some stuff.

Steven Gaber
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Message 98070 - Posted: 14 Jul 2020, 7:33:57 UTC - in response to Message 98068.  
Last modified: 14 Jul 2020, 7:34:39 UTC

Now that it's fixed, I'm getting nothing. Feast or famine with Rosetta.

C'mon, guys, send me some stuff.
Whether or not you get work depends entirely on your Resource share settings, and the amount of up time your system has, and the amount of time BONC is able to process work while the system is up, and the deadlines of any existing work.

You have a 2 core system running 3 projects, and one of those projects (WCG) actually consists of dozens of other projects. Set your Resource share, set your cache to zero, then just let it be for a month or so to try & sort itself out.
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Remarc

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Message 98083 - Posted: 14 Jul 2020, 20:31:43 UTC
Last modified: 14 Jul 2020, 20:32:09 UTC

why is such a difference in credits?
https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/result.php?resultid=1218066726 508 decoys and 154 credit
https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/result.php?resultid=1218067975 472 decoys and 397 credit
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Profile Grant (SSSF)

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Message 98085 - Posted: 14 Jul 2020, 20:42:14 UTC - in response to Message 98083.  
Last modified: 14 Jul 2020, 20:46:01 UTC

why is such a difference in credits?
https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/result.php?resultid=1218066726 508 decoys and 154 credit
https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/result.php?resultid=1218067975 472 decoys and 397 credit
New Tasks take a while for the Credit to settle down. Sometimes it pays out more, sometime less, but after a dozen or so it will generally pay out inline with other Tasks of similar Runtimes.

And aborting massive amounts of work doesn't help.
If you don't want to do the work, don't download it in the first place. Set your cache to zero & set your Resource share to match the balance of work you want to do and then let things settle down.


And i don't know what is up with your system, but there is something seriously wrong when a Pentium(R) G4560 shows up with 128 processors.
Grant
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Remarc

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Message 98094 - Posted: 14 Jul 2020, 23:48:21 UTC - in response to Message 98085.  
Last modified: 15 Jul 2020, 0:21:41 UTC

why is such a difference in credits?
https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/result.php?resultid=1218066726 508 decoys and 154 credit
https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/result.php?resultid=1218067975 472 decoys and 397 credit
New Tasks take a while for the Credit to settle down. Sometimes it pays out more, sometime less, but after a dozen or so it will generally pay out inline with other Tasks of similar Runtimes.

And aborting massive amounts of work doesn't help.
If you don't want to do the work, don't download it in the first place. Set your cache to zero & set your Resource share to match the balance of work you want to do and then let things settle down.


And i don't know what is up with your system, but there is something seriously wrong when a Pentium(R) G4560 shows up with 128 processors.

that's the thing is credits all the time different and completely unclear how they calculate,many aborting works is necessary measure because in that project not have function to select only covid type works so i reject any other tasks that don't have a label covid
yes i know about it,nothing wrong with my system it is working ok
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Message 98099 - Posted: 15 Jul 2020, 8:27:45 UTC - in response to Message 98094.  

yes i know about it,nothing wrong with my system it is working ok
479 Errored Tasks indicates otherwise, especially so when only 29 are In progress and only 2 are Valid out of 510 in total.
Grant
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Message 98105 - Posted: 15 Jul 2020, 15:15:52 UTC - in response to Message 98094.  


that's the thing is credits all the time different and completely unclear how they calculate,many aborting works is necessary measure because in that project not have function to select only covid type works so i reject any other tasks that don't have a label covid
yes i know about it,nothing wrong with my system it is working ok


You do realise that not all Covid related WUs have Covid in the name don’t you?
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Remarc

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Message 98110 - Posted: 15 Jul 2020, 17:51:32 UTC - in response to Message 98099.  
Last modified: 15 Jul 2020, 18:10:14 UTC

yes i know about it,nothing wrong with my system it is working ok

479 Errored Tasks indicates otherwise, especially so when only 29 are In progress and only 2 are Valid out of 510 in total.

your message indicates that you do not understand how work boinc and etc ok.
read the message again there says why this is happening
write please on the case,do you know how credits are calculated and why they are different or not? my question was about this,and not about whether have errors with my rig or not
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