5.12 Windows Media Player and ffdshow

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nn_step

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Message 15761 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 9:44:57 UTC - in response to Message 15754.  
Last modified: 10 May 2006, 9:46:52 UTC

Two questions:
(1) What level of memory use are you seeing for rosetta@home (with graphics) on your computers?

-Well with the Windows XP SP2 Stripped OS That is currently in developement and is currently out for Public usage and Beta testing. the Average Ram Usage is usually under 256Mb
If we Invoke the Bench Mode we can get it down under 128MB

(2) Should we disable the graphics in the next release to reduce memory use for larger proteins?
(at ~100Mb per work unit, there should be no problems on most machines).

-Actually I think you should give the option of it but outside of that I see no real need to remove it.. but then again this is my opinion.
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Message 15763 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 11:45:57 UTC

How come since version 5.12 appeared all my movies start very slowly with WMP (or Media Player Classic) using ffdshow codec? I have two systems running Rosetta and one had a 5.12 project and showed this problem. The other one was still working on a 5.07 project and played movies fine. Now this other system works on a 5.12 project and movies load slow.

It\'s not a processor issue since if I suspend all work, and no processor is used, movies still take some time to load. Problem dissapears when I close the BOINC manager.

And I\'m not very sure if it\'s connected to ffdshow, I seem to have the problem with gamespot\'s movies that are encoded with wmv codecs and I don\'t use ffdshow to decode those.

Any ideeas?
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Message 15764 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 11:53:06 UTC

well now, there have already been two reports of this type of activity reported in relation to 5.12 in Ralph. I\'ve seen something that I\'m not willing to pin to Ralph/5.12 just yet, but this thread might get interesting.

tony
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Profile Dimitris Hatzopoulos

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Message 15783 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 15:12:46 UTC
Last modified: 10 May 2006, 15:20:58 UTC

Two questions:
(1) What level of memory use are you seeing for rosetta@home (with graphics) on your computers?


Under Windows, Rosetta used to take 60MB to 160MB of memory (with some HUGE WUs which needed up to 250MB a month ago) and 300-450MB of virtual, until recently. Latest v5.12 seems to have drastically reduced memory to \"just\" 60-75MB and 300-320MB virtual.

For monitoring processes under Windows I recommend the excellent free Process Explorer util.

Oddly, under Linux, Rosetta takes about HALF of that (30-40MB and up to 85MB).

This is ofcourse empirical, from casual observation.

ps u -U boinc
USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TTY STAT START TIME COMMAND
boinc 2120 0.0 0.5 7468 3756 ? S Apr27 0:17 ./boinc_client
boinc 4763 10.1 11.0 116472 82112 ? SN May09 118:20 rosetta_beta_5.12
boinc 4764 0.0 11.0 116472 82112 ? SN May09 0:00 rosetta_beta_5.12
boinc 4765 0.0 11.0 116472 82112 ? SN May09 0:00 rosetta_beta_5.12
boinc 19053 69.3 4.0 94640 30264 ? RN 13:43 182:12 rosetta_5.12_i686
boinc 19054 0.0 4.0 94640 30264 ? SN 13:43 0:00 rosetta_5.12_i686
boinc 19055 0.0 4.0 94640 30264 ? SN 13:43 0:00 rosetta_5.12_i686
boinc 19056 0.0 4.0 94640 30264 ? SN 13:43 0:00 rosetta_5.12_i686

(2) Should we disable the graphics in the next release to reduce memory use for larger proteins? (at ~100Mb per work unit, there should be no problems on most machines).


Please don\'t disable graphics. Remember that for many crunchers, the \"reward\" is the cool screensaver graphics and the credits.

I don\'t know if you did some changes in latest v5.12, but as I said memory requirements under Win seem to half of what I used to see for the past 2 months. Maybe it\'s the algorithm (jumping), rather than an issue of the graphics thread, you should know best.
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Message 15785 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 15:25:33 UTC - in response to Message 15783.  

Please don\'t disable graphics. Remember that for many crunchers, the \"reward\" is the cool screensaver graphics and the credits.

If all else fails, perhaps you could add a note somewhere that Graphics may slow down some systems, and in that case, the project suggests turning the graphics \"off\" [or whatever is the appropriate language].

This would at least give people a heads-up to potential memory issues. I totally agree that the decision to turn off the graphics should be up to the individual user.

Regards,
Bob P.
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Profile Dimitris Hatzopoulos

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Message 15800 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 16:36:14 UTC

I just read a post from another fellow in Greece that on his PC too there\'s a 1min delay in starting to play video when Rosetta 5.12 is running (tried under both BOINC 5.2.13 and 5.3.31) and he tried WMP, media player classic, power dvd.
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Profile Dimitris Hatzopoulos

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Message 15802 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 16:48:14 UTC
Last modified: 10 May 2006, 16:48:32 UTC

Apparently some problem with Rosetta v5.12 and video apps (WMP, media player classic, power dvd) under Win, it delays start by ~1min. For details see here
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Message 15803 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 16:57:02 UTC

I\'ve been trying to track down memory usage (Windows). I often find it seems some specific WUs, while saying their memory space is modest (150MB or so) that they generate PILES of page faults. On the order of 1,000 per second for the entire run of the WU (24hrs in my case).

I haven\'t been able to track down whether it\'s due to the protein, or the method of analysis of a given WU. In fact, I think I\'ve had two running at the same time on my dual core CPU and both for the same protein name, but different methods, and one generates 1,000+ page faults per second and the other virtually none. I\'m generally monitoring the page faults while NOT viewing the graphics.

Using less memory is great. I agree though, don\'t change the project stance on memory reqs prematurely. A note (perhaps even within the new protein description) that viewing the screensaver or graphic may slow performance on some systems would be a good idea.
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Message 15805 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 17:04:41 UTC

In general, running a BOINC project is going to use memory on your PC. And with that memory in use, it will often take longer to load any other application. Video needs both the application and the video data, which requires lots of memory. And if BOINC continues running while computer is in use, it will continue to compete for memory, and thus further degrade startup of other applications due to the memory contention.

To investigate further you might try suspending boinc (Commands tab, \"Suspend\"), then verify in task manager that the crunching threads are no longer using CPU time... then start the video.

The fact that this is a new problem for you with 5.12 would seem to disprove the above theory though :(
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Message 15807 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 17:32:22 UTC

5.12 interferes with online poker specifically with William Hill Application.

Causes application to hang and become unusable. Problem dissapears when I close BOINC or suspend Rosetta
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Profile Dimitris Hatzopoulos

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Message 15809 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 17:36:56 UTC - in response to Message 15803.  

I\'ve been trying to track down memory usage (Windows). I often find it seems some specific WUs, while saying their memory space is modest (150MB or so) that they generate PILES of page faults. On the order of 1,000 per second for the entire run of the WU (24hrs in my case).

I haven\'t been able to track down whether it\'s due to the protein, or the method of analysis of a given WU. In fact, I think I\'ve had two running at the same time on my dual core CPU and both for the same protein name, but different methods, and one generates 1,000+ page faults per second and the other virtually none. I\'m generally monitoring the page faults while NOT viewing the graphics.


Feet1st, right on, I just checked and I find the exact same behaviour. On a PC with 1GB of memory and very little else running besides Rosetta.

One Rosetta process has page fault delta of 0, the other between 1000-2000/sec

In my case, the one doing 1000+ pf/sec was JUMP_CLOSE_CHAINBREAK_ALLBARCODE_1a7aA_SAVE_ALL_OUT_493_3201
once suspended, overall system pagefaults/sec went down to almost zero. Resuming the WU now (having changed nothing) the overall pf/sec delta is close to zero.

Odd... Thanks for bringing it up, we need to look more into this.
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Message 15814 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 18:16:01 UTC
Last modified: 10 May 2006, 18:21:23 UTC

Feet1st wrote: \"To investigate further you might try suspending boinc (Commands tab, \"Suspend\"),\"

I wrote: \"It\'s not a processor issue since if I suspend all work, and no processor is used, movies still take some time to load.\"

Pay attention.

I\'m confirming the 1 minute time interval delay.

Futher more: I believe we are not beginners in computer science. I believe we are working on a computer for more than 3 years and perhaps, on multiple OS\'s. Hmm, haven\'t tried BOINC on Linux yet. In that way I expect that people know that if an issue is being presented, is already tested for common causes by that person (he who reports it). In any case, this is what I expect of myself.
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Message 15819 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 19:34:01 UTC - in response to Message 15783.  

We\'re super glad to hear that the memory requirements are lower for 5.12. The rosetta development team has made a real effort to reduce the memory requirements. The memory will even shrink a bit more in apps we\'re testing over the next week.

We are concerned, however, about the effect on WMP and other things. We have added nothing since 5.12 that would cause the problem... maybe something snuck into the BOINC graphics api. I\'m contacting the BOINC team.

Finally, Dimitris and Feet1st, are you only seeing the page faults on that workunit? (JUMP_CLOSE_CHAINBREAK_ALLBARCODE_...) If so, I\'ll cancel that WU. Also, how are you monitoring page faults?

Two questions:
(1) What level of memory use are you seeing for rosetta@home (with graphics) on your computers?


Under Windows, Rosetta used to take 60MB to 160MB of memory (with some HUGE WUs which needed up to 250MB a month ago) and 300-450MB of virtual, until recently. Latest v5.12 seems to have drastically reduced memory to \"just\" 60-75MB and 300-320MB virtual.

For monitoring processes under Windows I recommend the excellent free Process Explorer util.

Oddly, under Linux, Rosetta takes about HALF of that (30-40MB and up to 85MB).

This is ofcourse empirical, from casual observation.

ps u -U boinc
USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TTY STAT START TIME COMMAND
boinc 2120 0.0 0.5 7468 3756 ? S Apr27 0:17 ./boinc_client
boinc 4763 10.1 11.0 116472 82112 ? SN May09 118:20 rosetta_beta_5.12
boinc 4764 0.0 11.0 116472 82112 ? SN May09 0:00 rosetta_beta_5.12
boinc 4765 0.0 11.0 116472 82112 ? SN May09 0:00 rosetta_beta_5.12
boinc 19053 69.3 4.0 94640 30264 ? RN 13:43 182:12 rosetta_5.12_i686
boinc 19054 0.0 4.0 94640 30264 ? SN 13:43 0:00 rosetta_5.12_i686
boinc 19055 0.0 4.0 94640 30264 ? SN 13:43 0:00 rosetta_5.12_i686
boinc 19056 0.0 4.0 94640 30264 ? SN 13:43 0:00 rosetta_5.12_i686

(2) Should we disable the graphics in the next release to reduce memory use for larger proteins? (at ~100Mb per work unit, there should be no problems on most machines).


Please don\'t disable graphics. Remember that for many crunchers, the \"reward\" is the cool screensaver graphics and the credits.

I don\'t know if you did some changes in latest v5.12, but as I said memory requirements under Win seem to half of what I used to see for the past 2 months. Maybe it\'s the algorithm (jumping), rather than an issue of the graphics thread, you should know best.


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Message 15832 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 20:27:30 UTC - in response to Message 15800.  

I just read a post from another fellow in Greece that on his PC too there\'s a 1min delay in starting to play video when Rosetta 5.12 is running (tried under both BOINC 5.2.13 and 5.3.31) and he tried WMP, media player classic, power dvd.


hello, i am the one Dimitris is refering.

there is a major problem here, i can run nothing that containg ANY multimedia contect especially videos.

suspending the project does not affect the problem.
i have to shut down boinc in order to run my videos.
the system is an A64
3500@2800
2GB ram
2Xraptors oin raid 0
X1900XT
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Message 15836 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 20:44:11 UTC
Last modified: 10 May 2006, 20:48:20 UTC

Rhiju, I don\'t have any 5.12 crunching as yet. Not seeing the problem at the moment, and all of my observations were on prior releases. I was thinking of starting a thread and saying \"Let\'s just talk about those that pull > 1m faults per hour of runtime\", because I was seeing maybe 30% of WUs were doing just that... on PCs with 1GB of memory.

I pushed some screenshots of 3 WUs up to the web for you to see. I will try to be more dilligent when the 5.12 WUs come through my cache. Is there more info. I should try to capture? I\'ve got WU name, runtime, total page faults, R@H version... anything else?

[edit] I think the screen shots will answer your question about how (at least for my machines) I\'ve been monitoring page faults. I\'m looking at task manager PF Delta and \"Page Faults\" (the total for the PID).
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Message 15837 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 20:51:28 UTC - in response to Message 15819.  

are you only seeing the page faults on that workunit? (JUMP_CLOSE_CHAINBREAK_ALLBARCODE_...) If so, I\'ll cancel that WU. Also, how are you monitoring page faults?


For WinXPpro I monitor page faults from ProcessExplorer util (mentioned earlier). One can click on the \"System Information\" button which presents stats about the whole system (paging, CPU, I/O etc). When I saw \"Page Fault Delta\" (i.e. change in page faults per second) high, I right-clicked on the running processes until I found the one causing it.

I\'m not familiar with the WinXP VM system though.

Anyway, I didn\'t notice a difference in performance but, theoretically speaking, 1000+ page faults per second add some overhead (interrupting the CPU and calling the page fault handler).
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Message 15838 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 20:55:36 UTC - in response to Message 15836.  

I think the screen shots will answer your question about how (at least for my machines) I\'ve been monitoring page faults. I\'m looking at task manager PF Delta and \"Page Faults\" (the total for the PID).


in about 22 miniutes i have 242.000 page fault increasing about 650/s ....
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Message 15839 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 20:57:22 UTC - in response to Message 15838.  

I think the screen shots will answer your question about how (at least for my machines) I\'ve been monitoring page faults. I\'m looking at task manager PF Delta and \"Page Faults\" (the total for the PID).


in about 22 miniutes i have 242.000 page fault increasing about 650/s ....


sorry the process is running for about 7 minutes after the last reboot
A64 3500@2727MHz - A64 3200@2400MHz - P4 3.0 northy@3.6MHz
Sempron 2600+@2100MHz - Celeron 2.8 northy @3.6MHz
P4 2.4@2.8MHz - Celeron 2.66@3.0MHz - AthlonXP 2000+@1866MHz
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Message 15840 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 21:00:20 UTC - in response to Message 15814.  
Last modified: 10 May 2006, 21:03:37 UTC

[redguard:] I believe we are not beginners in computer science. I believe we are working on a computer for more than 3 years and perhaps, on multiple OS\'s. Hmm, haven\'t tried BOINC on Linux yet. In that way I expect that people know that if an issue is being presented, is already tested for common causes by that person (he who reports it). In any case, this is what I expect of myself.

Many with 1,400 credits and 2 posts on the message board ARE computer novices... if that. Certainly one can\'t presume 3 years of experience on the part of someone who posts.

I apologize for missing your comment about having tried suspending things first... now, could you use your extensive computer experience and see if you can understand the main point of my comments, which was the memory utilization?

A suspended task does not immediately give up all of it\'s memory. In fact, a suspended task, if indeed the BOINC Manager successfully got it to suspend, would ONLY have memory left as a point of contention, since it isn\'t using any disk IO, nor CPU time. I\'ve seen cases where BOINC Manager does NOT get the WU to suspend. That was why I suggested confirming it has done so via the task manager.
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Message 15844 - Posted: 10 May 2006, 21:29:35 UTC - in response to Message 15836.  
Last modified: 10 May 2006, 21:46:41 UTC

Hi all:

Looks like the high rate of page faults is a separate issue that\'s been around for a while, since at least 5.01 according to Feet1st\'s screen shots. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Being a Windows novice, I didn\'t see that the task manager would give a PF column (it wasn\'t on by default on my test machine!). So I\'ll now look into that. My current WUs aren\'t showing a high rate of PF\'s, though.

But the main issue now is the severe slowdown some users are seeing with 5.12, and didn\'t see with 5.07. We think this problem is due to new debugging code that the Boinc team helped us add to the Windows build. For those of you who have seen this slowdown in Windows Media Player or Internet connections, could you possibly attach to ralph? I am posting a new app there (5.13) which is the same as 5.12 but without the new debugging stuff. Hopefully it has the fix. But I need your input! I\'m sending out some jobs now with 5.12, and in about half an hour I\'ll send more out with 5.13.



Rhiju, I don\'t have any 5.12 crunching as yet. Not seeing the problem at the moment, and all of my observations were on prior releases. I was thinking of starting a thread and saying \"Let\'s just talk about those that pull > 1m faults per hour of runtime\", because I was seeing maybe 30% of WUs were doing just that... on PCs with 1GB of memory.

I pushed some screenshots of 3 WUs up to the web for you to see. I will try to be more dilligent when the 5.12 WUs come through my cache. Is there more info. I should try to capture? I\'ve got WU name, runtime, total page faults, R@H version... anything else?

[edit] I think the screen shots will answer your question about how (at least for my machines) I\'ve been monitoring page faults. I\'m looking at task manager PF Delta and \"Page Faults\" (the total for the PID).


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