Posts by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers

1) Message boards : Number crunching : Over night, The Dual Xeon 5335 will pass RAC=3000 :) (Message 32951)
Posted 20 Dec 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:
I agree, the rosetta cause is a noble one.
It's the management thats lacking the nobility.
I ran Rosetta for 9 months before I saw the light on that issue.


??

Maybe things have changed since then, because since I've been here, Rosetta has had the nicest, most available and polite team I've ever seen.


Can't agree more :)

Come on, put your machine here and let's see if you can process :)

who?

ahh, I'm committed to WCG and as the gentleman from the machine pointed out, from mid Jan to mid february I'll be in another competition with one of the Legends in this sport..I am available for the first 2 weeks of January.
I see you crunch for the Intel French team. By any chance an employee as we know clovers are very hard to come by?
I'll drop by to see if your interested and until then good luck with your system.


Clovertown are very available, GamePc link shows you if you select the CPU that you can buy it today
expensive Rig, but really incredible. this is a life style, an attitude, i know you understand what i mean, a dual xeon 5335 is like driving a lambo, incredible amount of power, perfect handling, the only limit is your computer skills and your coder imagination.

I am very hard to get impressed by a computer, i am expose to many prototypes, but this Dual Xeon left me speetch less after i work with it for few week. I can encode video at speed i did not think possible 1 year ago, ray tracing real time is at the corner, amazing.

by the way, i challenge anybody to demonstrate that the FSB of this machine is saturated on Desktop work load. Who ever pretent this is a lier, or use a synthetic work load that does not reflect reality.

Come by here when you have time, and spend some cycles on Rosetta, after all, it may find the cure for the sickness we may have when we are all old :)


Who?

Actually if you look at that link you posted you'll find that the only quad cores they show available right now are the 1.6's and 1.86's..The others won't be available till Jan 10 according to them and did you see the prices!$1630.00 each for the 2667's!
As to spending "a few cycles on Rosetta, I spent many more than a few my friend.
Ran 6 here at the house for 8 months 24/7 for them.
4 dual xeons, a dual opty and a P4..
On the FSB issue, I wouldn't be quite so sure.
I have 2 clovertown machines here. Identical boards,ram,memory,PSU and video.
The difference between them is one has only one cpu in it and that one is currently at stock speed of 2667/8mb/1066 and the dual is at 3000/8mb/1333.
On WCG the dual is doing just 25,000 points a day while the single is working at over 13,000 a day at the lower speed..makes you wonder.
I do agree that these are the most incredible 2 cpu setups ever built and the dual here is doing 5+ times the work of my DX3600/2mb/800 machine.
A shame we can't get together on WCG but that is life.
I'll drop by and give you some numbers after I get this all modded up and at a faster speed. Shooting for 3500-3600 but I think water is necessary above 3400 and I prefer air. Don't like mixing water and electronics.
Sort of old fashioned in that respect.
My best to you and your machine.
2) Message boards : Number crunching : Over night, The Dual Xeon 5335 will pass RAC=3000 :) (Message 32945)
Posted 20 Dec 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:
I agree, the rosetta cause is a noble one.
It's the management thats lacking the nobility.
I ran Rosetta for 9 months before I saw the light on that issue.


??

Maybe things have changed since then, because since I've been here, Rosetta has had the nicest, most available and polite team I've ever seen.


Can't agree more :)

Come on, put your machine here and let's see if you can process :)

who?

ahh, I'm committed to WCG and as the gentleman from the machine pointed out, from mid Jan to mid february I'll be in another competition with one of the Legends in this sport..I am available for the first 2 weeks of January.
I see you crunch for the Intel French team. By any chance an employee as we know clovers are very hard to come by?
I'll drop by to see if your interested and until then good luck with your system.

3) Message boards : Number crunching : Over night, The Dual Xeon 5335 will pass RAC=3000 :) (Message 32903)
Posted 19 Dec 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:
Bring it over to WCG and I'll match my dual clover against you and we'll see what you can do..
Make sure your clocked well into the 3ghz range first.<BG>



why don't you come here, the Rosetta cause is very noble, and we need more people processing here.

scared?

who?

I agree, the rosetta cause is a noble one.
It's the management thats lacking the nobility.
I ran Rosetta for 9 months before I saw the light on that issue.
WCG is also a noble cause to use your terms.
Bring it over and we'll do this and have a little fun while we do so.
As to QMC, I don't run it. I did for maybe 2 weeks to help that team.
And as to shifting WU, I think even my detractors here would vouch for me on that issue.
4) Message boards : Number crunching : Over night, The Dual Xeon 5335 will pass RAC=3000 :) (Message 32868)
Posted 18 Dec 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:
This is a X5350 on a SM X7DAE with 4-1 gig DDR2-667FBDimms. Just up for a few days now on WCG but looks like it will pull 25K+ a day in WCG..
Running at 3000/8mb/1333 right now. Will be over 3300 in the next 30 days.
It will take a week or so to see what it is really doing. The issue is the quorum system. It is doin faah units in under 4 hours and 8 at a time.
Over 6 pages of WU awaiting validation.It's waiting for all the others that the WU were sent to finish up.<BG>

Just checked that QMC link you have. One of Hassans machines is a dual clovertown and KaptainBlazzed is running both a kentsfield and a dual woodcrest machine there.
5) Message boards : Number crunching : Over night, The Dual Xeon 5335 will pass RAC=3000 :) (Message 32846)
Posted 18 Dec 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:
Bring it over to WCG and I'll match my dual clover against you and we'll see what you can do..
Make sure your clocked well into the 3ghz range first.<BG>
6) Message boards : Number crunching : Closed to all, but those with stinky feet (Message 28255)
Posted 23 Sep 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:
I will now produce some links that show the hypocrisy that went on in this forum.

http://docking.utep.edu/forum_thread.php?id=53#560 Amazingly this is dated yesterday.....After all that has gone on I`m astonished.

http://www.boincsynergy.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2307&start=0

http://www.free-dc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10543&highlight=optimised

And from Ars technica we have

The BOINC client has 2 parts, the "core client" that is a cli preferably installed as service, and the "Manager", a gui, that is used to monitor/control core client. Normally you don't need to run the Manager at all, can even use example BoincView instead.


For optimized seti-applications, and BOINC core client to go along (if wanted), look at
http://www.marisan.nl/seti/
http://www.guntec.de/Crunch3r/

Use at own risk...

Note, Seti_Enhanced is expected released in a couple weeks time, if you're running optimized seti-application you must remove this again (or download a new), so it's possibly easier to wait a couple weeks...

With Seti_Enhanced, optimized core client will not change claimed credit anyway so isn't really needed.


Just like "classic", the SETI@Home/BOINC-application likes large cache-memory and fast memory-speed.
If uses optimized seti-application Intel-cpu's normally has a slight advantage.



I see teams out there this week, the ones supposedly whiter than white, clambering for new optimised Einstein and Seti and still links to general optimised Boinc clients available on most team forum.

Truth be known the more I look the more it looks like the calls for a fair system were sour grapes. Which is a shame. Saenger I expected better from, I took him at his word.

And yes Teddies and XS had their links too but not taken up by all.

There was a part of me that thought from the beginning that this was a sour grapes thing but I buried that thought as I thought no rational adult male would be so in need of a ego boost as to stoop this low.
You guys need points this much that you modify the xml files of a app because Linux gets a bath compared to windows BUT you'd scream at XS for using crunch3r's 550 files because they made the AMD's and Intels equal?
I'm honest about what we did and why, but those here that played "holier than thou" and then modify the files should be ashamed to show their faces here.
To Dr. Baker:
This will make you very happy. I will never be back here again for any reason.
You now know the character of the people that you decided to side with.
I told you from the beginning that we came to help you and you just couldn't get that though your head.
Now you and David Kim will KNOW exactly the type of people you decided to side with.I hope your happy together. You deserve each other.

To the rest here, say what you want, I for damn sure won't read it.

7) Message boards : Number crunching : Closed to all, but those with stinky feet (Message 28252)
Posted 23 Sep 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:
carl: I have something for you that you will get the biggest kick out of.
you'll have a PM in 3 minutes.
8) Message boards : Number crunching : Closed to all, but those with stinky feet (Message 28250)
Posted 23 Sep 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:

<snip>
What can't be denied is that the project lost a huge resource in the people of the top teams that have left and that is not just XS. Many other teams saw what went on here and have cut their contribution by varing amounts.


... and many other teams have upped their contribution by varying amounts.

Good, then we won't have to worry about Rosetta's servers being idled and thats a good thing.

Well that is the core of our disagreement. I just recall it radically different. IMHO the project did not follow a "vocal minority" but did what was the wish of the overwhelming majority (fair work based credit system). There was a debate whether to backdate and/or whether to grant more like the standard boinc client or like the optimized one. In the course of the debate some called users of 5.5.0 cheaters and some of XS and others flamed back. The project than listened to your complaints, forbid cheating accusations, retreated on the idea of backdating and Dr. Baker made a special appearance in your board, however you were angered to a level where you demanded the condemnation of specific posters which was inappropriate.

As I remember it, it saw T.Castro,Saenger,Thierry and yourself that seemed especially hot to see this new system in place. If there were others forgive me but is was the first two of those individuals that did the most talking on this point.
The project ONLY forbid the cheating acusations after XS had left and Dr. Baker's 3 minute appearance on the XS forum was made just to make a statement and then leave. He answered nothing and his statement carried no ring of truth in it. The issue of "condemnation" as you but it was brought up to him in an email BUT was also accompanied with the thought that we understood that he would not be able to do that and retain the groups that they belonged to.
The and I repeat THE issue that was a deal breaker was HIS refusal to come to the crunching section and put a stop to the cheating acusations.
I can back up what I am telling you as it was I that wrote those emails to him and I have mine and his responses and will be more than happy to post them here.He might not appreciate it but it would back up every word I have said.

9) Message boards : Number crunching : Closed to all, but those with stinky feet (Message 28245)
Posted 23 Sep 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:
@XS_VS

While I agree that not all crunchers contribute equally to the work done and top-crunchers are more valuable to the project from a strict crnching-time-perspective I disagree with your numbers:

a) XS got about 8-10% of the granted credits - in real work done it was probably closer to 3%.

I disagree but your entitled to your opinion. I'll run some numbers over the next couple days to try and get as exact a figure as possible.
b) To replace a top-cruncher like PY222 or DDTung you don't need about 33.000 average cruncher but more likely about 500-1000 or one other top-cruncher like UW-Madison CAE who joined AFTER the change to the new credit system.

My 33,000 figure was a fast appoximation using saengers numbers vs mine vs DDTUNGS, all known figures to me. That figure is very close but again, to satisfy both our curiousities I will run some numbers on this.
As to UW-Madison, thats a University and I think thats stretching the word "cruncher" a bit but ok, lets accept that. They signed on after the change because it is a school and the timing was that the schools didn't open until after the change. It would have been dificult for them to sign up in July when they were closed wouldn't you agree?

Teams and top-crunchers are valuable to a project but I came to the conclusion not as much as one could think at first. Teams and top-crunchers often (not always) change the project and if one team reduces his output another one ups it. There are many teams which upped their production AFTER the credit system change (Czech-National, TSC! Russia, Planet3D etc.).

I don't want to imply with what I said that a project should not care for his top-teams and top-crunchers and for those mostly interested in the discussion but it should never subordinate to the demands of any team or cruncher even when he thinks he is irreplaceable.

I never stated or implied that any team is irreplaceable as that is not the case.What I said is that a project should not give in to a few who essentially contribute very little but are very vocal. If you have forgotten, I did not come to this forum to start a problem, I came here only after I was told that a few people had come here with the agenda to change the rosetta system to what they wanted it to be and then started using the C word in regard to a team that I was co-captain of. I never had an issue with a work based credit system. My issues were with people with private agendas changing things to what they wanted and much more than that, being called a cheat and then having the project manager do nothing about it.
The timing of this change took place JUST as the schools were starting to reopen and that in itself masked the actual drop in work done. Had this change taken place in June or July I think you'll agree that the effect would have shown more clearly.
Whatever percentage the numbers will show will not be truly seen until next summer when the schools again close. Now Rosetta may well grow before then as this past year it has gathered much national attention and then again when people hear of what went on here they may go to other projects.
Time will only answer that question.
What can't be denied is that the project lost a huge resource in the people of the top teams that have left and that is not just XS. Many other teams saw what went on here and have cut their contribution by varing amounts.

10) Message boards : Number crunching : Closed to all, but those with stinky feet (Message 28232)
Posted 23 Sep 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:
XS_VS: Well, I'm sorry to see you go. I hope you find another project (BOINC or otherwise) that appeals to you, and I wish you the best. You've set a shining example of dedication, during your time here (even if we didn't always agree), and one that'll be tough to follow.

Thank you. Everything I have and quite a bit of the XS Rosetta team is now on WCG. Yes, a DC app with a quorum system and we are running the stock BOINC app on it and after 3 weeks are up to #2-3 in the dailies.
People say that all we are after is #1 in a project but they forget the huge amount of work that gets done for that project while we do so.
We stayed in force on Rosetta well after we'd made #1( june6) and would still be there had not all this crap happenned.
I'm sure we'll see one another around..Just look for a good medical app and I'll probably be there.
11) Message boards : Number crunching : Closed to all, but those with stinky feet (Message 28229)
Posted 23 Sep 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:
See, I was saying that on the assumption that some of those 50 would be top-producers, and some would be lower-producers. Also, that the 100 coming in would have a similar spread (As I said, some who have been holding back are good-sized farms, as well.)

Also, I'd like to point out that we really do appreciate what you guys go through to produce what you do. Heck, I have to struggle to produce even the meager amount that I can. The last thing I want, to be perfectly honest, is to drive anyone away. The problem is that, as is becoming increasingly obvious, there's no "right" solution.

Over the course of this thread (and others I've been reading, these last few hours), I think I have changed my position. Perhaps it would be best to let Moore's Law run its course. Since this is, after all, a medical project, perhaps the "do no harm" philosophy is fitting.

Thought I'd point out, again, that none of my arguments were targeted at specific individuals. Even that comment about losing 50 and gaining 100 wasn't targeted at anyone (even though it has often been used that way, in the past). Mostly, I don't want any hard feelings, with anyone.

No problem between you and I..I didn't take that personal at all.
I'm off the project permanently. I can't work for someone who doesn't respect me as a person.
Nothing to do with credits I assure you, this is all about respect for your fellow man.
My gut feeling is that Dr. Baker isn't cut out to be a project manager. He doesn't have the skills for communication and should stick to what he does best and thats in the lab. That's not an insult, just my feelings from how I've seen him handle himself with the public.
What he needs is a good guy with some years of dealing with the public that he communicates with 2-3 times a week and then let that person be the front man for the project. A little less glory for him maybe but better overall for Rosetta.
12) Message boards : Number crunching : Closed to all, but those with stinky feet (Message 28225)
Posted 23 Sep 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:
Some thoughts:
One guy wrote " If we lose 50 crunchers and gain 100 have we really lost any?"
That depends on what those 50 prople brought to the project in the first place.
If you lose 50 people that had 6 top quality machines each and bring in 100 with their P4-2000's or in that area, then yes you have lost quite a bit.
The answer to this is that there is no answer that will please everyone.
There is a factor that should be considered by the developers though:
Think that you can make up the loss of the teams from adding Mary and Donnie's home PC and your dead wrong. Maybe with the numbers of people on the project yes, but as I showed in another post, just what came from my house and I am by no means a "big" cruncher, was app 1900 times what came from Saenger's and in this case I think you can look at him like the Mary and Donnie I mentioned.
That's not a slam on Saenger, I use him only as a known example of a single PC user involved in many projects.
Holding to that thought, how many Mary's or Donnie's do you need to sign up to equal one PY222 from FreeDC or a DDTUNG from XS: I can answer that, app 33,000 new single average PC users to equal either of those 2 guys.
I've heard many times people say here that every user is important and that is true to the extent that every user contributes, but to tell yourself when you have one machine on this project and then only part time that your as important as someone who has 100 top machines doing nothing but this project 24/7 is a delusion.
This is why it is and was a mistake for the developers to piss off the top teams. We do where others talk about it and thats not ego speaking, that is fact.
From everything I've been able to decipher, XS contributed app 8-10% of the total to Rostetta prior to the end of August and thats in work done not credits issued.That was done with app 220 active day in and day out people operating anywhere from 600-800 machines day in and out. At one point, as many as 2000 were on the project for XS but as you all know, people drift in and out as their needs and likes change.
13) Message boards : Number crunching : How to deal with a moderator that (Message 28146)
Posted 22 Sep 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:
You can get a taste of the real Matt Davis here

http://ytmnd.com/users/MattDavis/

You`ll see how vindictive he really is.

Watch out for the over 18 spanking site of little girls I expect!

Carl: I just took a look at that link to Matt Davis site.
That's a sick mind that's at work there.
I would steer a wide path from this guy to be safe.
14) Message boards : Number crunching : Another discussion on the New Credit System (Message 28135)
Posted 22 Sep 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:
My point in saying "get on this much earlier" meant why didn't you get on Rosetta much earlier?Had you been on the project in force last January you'd have had the same chance and opportunity that any other team to be #1.
You evidently didn't and now you want a second chance and that second chance to come at the price of what the top teams did being rolled into the back room out of sight.


We have been around on Rosetta for a while. We weren't interested in diverting power from our large GIMPS, SETI or F@H teams to take number one. We still aren't. I'm bothered by things as a matter of principle. Nobody is penalising XS as they make an assault on WCG, but the new credit system penalises any team that makes an assault on Rosetta.


As to making it a personal attack, that was based on what I saw on the stats pages. The person calling for the zeroing of points and starting over is also the head of the currently #2 largest producing team with the most to gain from such an action. What other conclusion could I possibly draw?


That you can't read perhaps?

The currently 2nd largest producing team is Anandtech.


As to XS only getting 1/3 of what we did get, again you are wrong.
Jan 1 to Aug 25, almost 8 full months..Optimised files used from Mid April to end of August. 3.5/8ths of the total working with the stock client..
Care to revise your comments as to what percentage of what we have now would still be there? Now matter what math you use it's way beyond the 1/3 you suggest.


What about the math based on XS having advocated the use of optimised clients since the 31st of December 2005? This thread has talked about optimised clients and encouraged the use of them since the day after it was posted. I don't believe that it took three and a half months for XS to notice that part of the setup guide. Optimised clients and the subsequent overclaiming of credit was widespread before April.


As to if the scoring system changed at WCG and we got 1/3 of the amount we got now, would we still be able to catch EasyNews..The answer is yes, we'd tripple the machines or quadruple them, whatever it took.
You just don't understand goal oriented people.You do what it takes to get to what your striving for..


I guess EasyNews were a bad example, simply because you're only at 25% of their production. A better example would be that of IBM. You outproduce them by around 170,000 a day, going by yesterday's production. But you're also 191 million points behind them, meaning that it's going to take over 1,000 days to catch them. If the scoring changed and everybody had their production drop to 1/3rd of current levels but the same scores were kept, it would then take over 3,000 days - seven years.

I do understand goal oriented people perfectly well. Whilst saying you would triple or quadruple your production to catch them is nice fighting talk, it's also meaningless unless it's backed up, which it isn't at the moment.

It's funny that people rail against the idea of backdating credit on the basis of ex post facto, when keeping the current scores is also ex post facto - because the old scores reflect the fact that the old credit system made for far more credit being awarded than should have been.

Biggles: I do hereby bow down and apologise for having slandered you.
I orginally made that post in the middle of the night and the only excuse for my error is that my 54 year old eyes reversed 2 teams names.
Mea culpa..
Please accept my apology.

15) Message boards : Number crunching : Another discussion on the New Credit System (Message 27950)
Posted 21 Sep 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:

You don't see the problem because you don't want to see it.
Look at the D2OL stats page. What do people see? They see the NEW stats and thats all they see unless they go looking for the OLD stats.
XS has been through this before and there were no optimised clients in D2OL, it was pure determination that got us to #1 and the science end had huge amounts of work done in that drive.
People do not "see" stored stats pages, they see what is current as that is where their interest is.
XS didn't stop crunching Rosetta when we made #1, that was in June if I remember.
We added another 20+ million points over and above what Free Dc produced after we passed them. Baker asked for more over the summer and he got it in spades from us. When it was over 110F here I kept 6 machines running 24/7 to help him get what he needed for CASP7.
One look at the stats page explains to me your interest. Your team is almost 50 million points behind XS and you are the current#2 producer since XS and Free Dc have drastically cut back in Rosetta and you see that you can never catch up as things sit today.
My answer is as stated above: You want to be #1, go add the people and add the machines and do it. If it takes you 2 years to get to #1 so be it.
We didn't get there overnight. It was 6 months of hard work.
Now you will say that the change makes that all but impossible.
My answer to that is why didn't you get on this much earlier?
You had the same playing field as anyone else this year and didn't have either the manpower or the machinery to get to #1 or you would have done so.
Points don't rule my life, but I am loyal to the guys on my team that worked their backsides off to get to a goal and I won't sit idly by while someone try's to negate that when the reality is that all that person is after is a fast way to get to #1..
Your just too transparent..



So transparent you think I'm on Anandtech? You've just undermined your arguments by making a personal, unjustified attack based on a wrong premise.

I did get on this when the issue of the new credit system first appeared. I said it was only a half measure then.

If a team with as much power as XS were to run Rosetta for a year, they would get only 1/3rd of the credit that XS did in the first year of Rosetta. Why is that? Because optimised clients overclaimed by a large amount. That's not fair no matter how you swing it. They could be just as dedicated, more so even, but if they ran Rosetta after the new credit system was in place, they had no chance to overclaim.

Think about WCG for a minute. If the scoring system had changed and you could only earn 1/3rd of what you currently do, would you be able to catch Easynews?

My point in saying "get on this much earlier" meant why didn't you get on Rosetta much earlier?Had you been on the project in force last January you'd have had the same chance and opportunity that any other team to be #1.
You evidently didn't and now you want a second chance and that second chance to come at the price of what the top teams did being rolled into the back room out of sight.
As to making it a personal attack, that was based on what I saw on the stats pages. The person calling for the zeroing of points and starting over is also the head of the currently #2 largest producing team with the most to gain from such an action. What other conclusion could I possibly draw?
As to XS only getting 1/3 of what we did get, again you are wrong.
Jan 1 to Aug 25, almost 8 full months..Optimised files used from Mid April to end of August. 3.5/8ths of the total working with the stock client..
Care to revise your comments as to what percentage of what we have now would still be there? Now matter what math you use it's way beyond the 1/3 you suggest.
As to if the scoring system changed at WCG and we got 1/3 of the amount we got now, would we still be able to catch EasyNews..The answer is yes, we'd tripple the machines or quadruple them, whatever it took.
You just don't understand goal oriented people.You do what it takes to get to what your striving for..
16) Message boards : Number crunching : Another discussion on the New Credit System (Message 27919)
Posted 21 Sep 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:

An interesting point. When XS got into Rosetta in January 2006 we were months behind some teams here.We had to overcome that and we did it by going from the orginal 65 members to a max of over 600 registered members.We added machines. I went from running 2 to running a max of 6. Now a lot of those didn't crunch on a regular basis, a lot just came at our attempt at a million point day and then stopped.
The point is we had to grow to catch the top teams and that option is just as open today as it was back then.


In January, the credit system was the same as it had been when those other teams started. That old credit system made it a whole lot easier for you to make up positions. Think of it this way, if the new credit system had come into effect in February, would XS have anywhere near the score they do now? No - but you would still have done the same amount of work.

Speaking just for myself, I would have no issue with backdating my credits to day one.That is me speaking strickly for myself and not for XS.
Starting from zero says to those that what you did was worthless and insults their effort.
Sort of like:" Up till now this was all a trial, now we'll do the real thing"


Starting from zero doesn't say it was worthless. The work was still done, and the sensible thing to do would be to have a snapshot of the final stats. So everybody would see that XS did more work than anyone else. Starting from zero just recognises that there's now a new credit system and counting things from that. We can't change the new credit system to fit the old one, so the other option would be to change the old one to fit the new one. And that would be backdating, which is a controversial one. But leaving things as is, and adding new credit straight on top of the old ones is a bad idea that'll have effects for years.

Tony:
A complete reset may be the ONLY way if you want to only count the work that was done from today onward but what does that say to the people that busted their backside and incurred huge expenses during the first 8 months of the year?
It says what was done is worthless and they're lot of people, myself included, who would scream to the heavens were that done.
JUST me, one little guy: My monthly electric bill was an additional $150.00-$200.00 higher during that period, all atributable to running the extra PC's for rosetta. We'll forget the $15,000.00 worth of equipment that I put solely on this project during that time.
If the developers want to say that my work was not worthy, at the very least cut me a check for the extra electric that I used just for them.
That works out to app $1400.00 for 8 months.


See above. The work was still done, as long as you got recognition for the first 8 months worth of work I don't see the problem.

You don't see the problem because you don't want to see it.
Look at the D2OL stats page. What do people see? They see the NEW stats and thats all they see unless they go looking for the OLD stats.
XS has been through this before and there were no optimised clients in D2OL, it was pure determination that got us to #1 and the science end had huge amounts of work done in that drive.
People do not "see" stored stats pages, they see what is current as that is where their interest is.
XS didn't stop crunching Rosetta when we made #1, that was in June if I remember.
We added another 20+ million points over and above what Free Dc produced after we passed them. Baker asked for more over the summer and he got it in spades from us. When it was over 110F here I kept 6 machines running 24/7 to help him get what he needed for CASP7.
One look at the stats page explains to me your interest. Your team is almost 50 million points behind XS and you are the current#2 producer since XS and Free Dc have drastically cut back in Rosetta and you see that you can never catch up as things sit today.
My answer is as stated above: You want to be #1, go add the people and add the machines and do it. If it takes you 2 years to get to #1 so be it.
We didn't get there overnight. It was 6 months of hard work.
Now you will say that the change makes that all but impossible.
My answer to that is why didn't you get on this much earlier?
You had the same playing field as anyone else this year and didn't have either the manpower or the machinery to get to #1 or you would have done so.
Points don't rule my life, but I am loyal to the guys on my team that worked their backsides off to get to a goal and I won't sit idly by while someone try's to negate that when the reality is that all that person is after is a fast way to get to #1..
Your just too transparent..

17) Message boards : Number crunching : Closed to all, but those with stinky feet (Message 27918)
Posted 21 Sep 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:
I wish you'd move your other post over here. It showed the passion that you had an money you spent and was very relevant to this topic.

tony

As you asked, here's a copy/paste of it:
Speaking just for myself, I would have no issue with backdating my credits to day one.That is me speaking strickly for myself and not for XS.
Starting from zero says to those that what you did was worthless and insults their effort.
Sort of like:" Up till now this was all a trial, now we'll do the real thing"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I hope everyone noticed, my first thought on backdating was voiced in this thread, and that I voted NO because it wouldn't do what it was intended.

Also, I made no mention of my position on a complete reset. I just wanted to show that a complete reset is the ONLY way. I don't think it's been ruled out as a point of discussion, so we could discuss it if someone wants to. Just keep it clean, please. We'd need a new thread of course.

tony


Tony:
A complete reset may be the ONLY way if you want to only count the work that was done from today onward but what does that say to the people that busted their backside and incurred huge expenses during the first 8 months of the year?
It says what was done is worthless and they're lot of people, myself included, who would scream to the heavens were that done.
JUST me, one little guy: My monthly electric bill was an additional $150.00-$200.00 higher during that period, all atributable to running the extra PC's for rosetta. We'll forget the $15,000.00 worth of equipment that I put solely on this project during that time.
If the developers want to say that my work was not worthy, at the very least cut me a check for the extra electric that I used just for them.
That works out to app $1400.00 for 8 months.

Let me add this to that thought:
I mention the amounts of equipment and dollars for electric involved to make a simple point: I was really into this and it wasn't for points. I'm not a wealthy person by any means. That DX3600 system was built from the proceeds of a VERY lucky night on ebay where I made $4400.00 plus on one buy/sell and decided that I would build myself a top system with the winnings.
The comittment to rum the 4-6 machines during the first 8 months of this year was not an easy one as I really didn't have the extra cash to cover the additional electric BUT I so beleived in the Rosetta program that I made that comittment and cut expenditures in other areas of my life to be able to do so.
Yes, this was my chioce made with free will but it was also with the unsaid understanding that someone wouldn't come along later and diminish that comitment by suggesting that the project essentially be restarted at some future point.
We all do what we do for different reasons, mine was pure love of what the program was trying to do. If I get a little over the top, maybe you'll understand that you can only grow to hate that which you have loved.
These people let us all down by their lack of effective management and the inability to just open their ears and eyes to what was being said.
All I ever wanted was to help them as nutty as that may sound to you.
The first time I wrote to David Kim I ended the email with this line and it wasn't a hustle, it was exactly how I felt:
"Help us to help you"
He just never heard the truth that was behind those words.


This is added app 3 minutes after the above post is made:
I refresh the page and here we go with the childish games of the pluses and minuses. I'd said earlier that if this crap didn't stop I would retaliate and all I can think is the people who are doing this are trying to push me over the edge..So be it, just remember that you started this crap not me.
____________

18) Message boards : Number crunching : Closed to all, but those with stinky feet (Message 27901)
Posted 21 Sep 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:
Tony:
At best even by your logic, you would never have exact numbers.
Unfortunately they've shot themselves in the foot over this and there is no clean way out that I can see.
I also understand that with the new systemn there is some sort of averaging going on and if that is true you still aren't seeing what each persons real output is.
Then you have the issue of the mac users that are getting killed with the new system. Backdate all of their credits and you'll need a magnifying glass just to see them.
Imagine your some mac user that had 4-6 machines running Rosetta from Jan to August then when the new system came into place left at seeing that the developers decided not to spend the time or money to work on a mac solution because the new macs coming out are using Intel chips.
This guy would see his credits almost zeroed. Can you imagine the anger?
I don't even want to think about that scenario.
You do that to someone who is crazed over credits and you better have Dr. Baker include the cost of a bodyguard into his budget.<BG>
No, I am not a mac user..LOLOL
19) Message boards : Number crunching : Another discussion on the New Credit System (Message 27895)
Posted 20 Sep 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:
Speaking just for myself, I would have no issue with backdating my credits to day one.That is me speaking strickly for myself and not for XS.
Starting from zero says to those that what you did was worthless and insults their effort.
Sort of like:" Up till now this was all a trial, now we'll do the real thing"


I hope everyone noticed, my first thought on backdating was voiced in this thread, and that I voted NO because it wouldn't do what it was intended.

Also, I made no mention of my position on a complete reset. I just wanted to show that a complete reset is the ONLY way. I don't think it's been ruled out as a point of discussion, so we could discuss it if someone wants to. Just keep it clean, please. We'd need a new thread of course.

tony

Tony:
A complete reset may be the ONLY way if you want to only count the work that was done from today onward but what does that say to the people that busted their backside and incurred huge expenses during the first 8 months of the year?
It says what was done is worthless and they're lot of people, myself included, who would scream to the heavens were that done.
JUST me, one little guy: My monthly electric bill was an additional $150.00-$200.00 higher during that period, all atributable to running the extra PC's for rosetta. We'll forget the $15,000.00 worth of equipment that I put solely on this project during that time.
If the developers want to say that my work was not worthy, at the very least cut me a check for the extra electric that I used just for them.
That works out to app $1400.00 for 8 months.
20) Message boards : Number crunching : Another discussion on the New Credit System (Message 27891)
Posted 20 Sep 2006 by XS_Vietnam_Soldiers
Post:
Reading this thread will even show you Crunch3rs' thoughts(at that time) on Rosetta, and how his optimized Boinc client 5.2.13 was affecting it.

NOTE: This thread is dated the 17 of December 2005

This presupposes that everyone went to the SETI page and saw his comments.
I was given a link to the posted files where there was no commentary.

XS VS Biggles is saying that backdating to Feb will get rid of most the skewing. I'm showing him it won't as it's been around since day one of the project.

THe only way to straighten out the "scoreboard" is a complete reset, not backdating.

Speaking just for myself, I would have no issue with backdating my credits to day one.That is me speaking strickly for myself and not for XS.
Starting from zero says to those that what you did was worthless and insults their effort.
Sort of like:" Up till now this was all a trial, now we'll do the real thing"


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