Posts by robertmiles

21) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97777)
Posted 9 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
.It's unclear what you mean by "log into BOINC". Give us more details if you need help with that.


It seems that I can have either the BOINC Manager or the World Community Grid, but not both.

When I said I was trying to log into BOINC, I meant that I could not find the BOINC Manager. WCG had deleted it, along with Roosetta.

BOINC Help said there was no such account with my email address. I had to download BOINC again to get to the BOINC Manager. Rosetta shows up there, but not in my WCG account.

WCG does not show up in my FreeDC page. My computer already completed four WCG projects, but they don't show up anywhere. WCG help won't llet in, says to delete cookies, which I did, but still couldn't get in.

I may just opt out of the WCG. Too many problems. I'll just wait for Rosetta to perk up again, or maybe add a different project that is not so intrusive.

I've had both BOINC Manager and World Community Grid running at the same time for years, so we we may need to look into why you're having trouble with this.

World Community Grid normally runs in the background, so you might not see it on the screen while it is running.

I don't remember using BOINC Help before I found it today. It appears to be written assuming version 7.6 of BOINC, so expect some of what it says to be years out of date.

BOINC Help offers to let you log in, but it's unclear what you would be logging for. It could be just for editting their help files, if you are allowed to do so.

I've never used FreeDC, but many of those sites for gathering information about what you have done are slow to update that information. The information there is likely to be a day or two out of date.

When you downloaded BOINC again, you could easily have installed a second copy of BOINC, that doesn't know what the other copy is doing.

When I download BOINC again (to install an updated version), the update process recognizes the first copy, removes the old BOINC software and replaces it without disturbing the projects attached, such as Rosetta@home and WCG.

A WCG account is specific to World Community Grid - it is not set up to know anything about other BOINC projects, such as Rosetta@home.
22) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97772)
Posted 9 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
I run an i3-8350 remotely so I'm familiar with your PC, though mine has 16Gb RAM compared to your 8Gb, but that ought not to make any difference with just 4-cores.

I think it does. He is only allowing 50% of the memory to be used by BOINC, so only 4 GB, or 1 GB/core.
Rosetta often uses more than 1 GB per work unit.

He is probably "waiting for memory" to become available.

If so, limiting BOINC to using only two of the cores should make each of those cores have 2 GB available.
23) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97754)
Posted 9 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
Having problems with Rosetta and World Community Grid.

I signed on to WCG and the computer started crunching.
However, it removed BONIC from my computer. In the WCG client, Asteroids and WCG are shown, as are SETI@Home and POGS, which are no longer active.

But Rosetta is MISSING!!

WCG won't let me on its forum page.

I had no active Rosetta tasks, but it should still show on my computer, along with the credits it has amassed.

Moreover, when I tried to log into BOINC, it says there is no such account for my email address. I've had a BOINC account for over 20 years.

What gives? I don't like how WGC has taken over my computer. Is that a common thing?

Steven Gaber
Oldsmar, FL

Not very common.

First, check if you have BOINC installed twice, not just once. Two copies will not share a computer well.

You might have selected Rosetta@home under the Projects list, then accidentally clicked on Remove.

Also Rosetta@home may have just completed its switch from http to https by deleting any remaining Rosetta@home accounts for Windows computers still using the http connection.

For either of these, click on Tools under Advanced view, then Add project. Scroll down to Rosetta@home, then click on it.

If the line in the Project URL box does not start with https:, insert the s. Now click on Next, and set up the account like before. This should recover the saved credits. If your computer still has the same name as before, it should also recover how much that computer has done.

It's unclear what you mean by "log into BOINC". Give us more details if you need help with that.
24) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97753)
Posted 9 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
Bad post deleted.
25) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97749)
Posted 9 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
Peter Hucker wrote:
I guess my tariff is lower than yours, because it's about half that. I do remember saving 30% by changing supplier a long time ago.

Mind you, I'm on one of those direct debit things that, like Boinc, never manages to settle down. So I could be racking up a massive debt....

What I'd love is Economy 7. My friend has it (he's still got storage radiators!) and only pays 5p a unit at night!
Good point – I’m in a rented flat and still on the supplier and tariff I inherited when I moved in. It’s unlikely that’s the best deal I could get…

In another place I neglected the direct debit discrepancy for so long it ended up with the supplier owing me £2,500!

Is the average cost still cheaper on Economy 7, despite the higher daytime rate? You can still change, can’t you? Though I suppose you’d have to pay £££ for a new meter…

But you’re really pulling 400 W per machine? I know the X5600s were not reknowned for their power efficiency, but they’re only 95 W TDP.

Looks like you're counting only the power used by the CPU chip, but not the power used by the rest of the computer. The computer's power supply must be able to handle the surges of power used to start up various sections of the computer, plus the power it uses itself, with enough of a margin that it does not run into the inefficiency of being too close to its limits.
26) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97746)
Posted 9 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
I would still recommend reducing Store up to an additional to zero, though in my experience that setting doesn’t seem to influence the amount of work downloaded in any event.
It does, just in very odd ways- It is best to have it as low as possible.

Having a large value for Additional days will result the cache running down significantly below the Store at least value, before it then gets more work to build it back up to the Store at least + Additional days value (and the larger each of those values, the greater the run down before it rebuilds the cache again). If people really feel a need for a cache, set it in Store at least value. The Additional days value should be as small as possible.
Weird things are much less likely to occur that way.


It seems a very simple setting to me, and it should obviously do the following (although Boinc is never sensible):

I set 6 hours + 12 hours. The queue falls to 6 hours, then it downloads an extra 12. That's a minimum of 6 and a maximum of 6+12. It can't mean anything else.

Yes if your mean 6 hours + 12 hours of run time. No if you mean 6 hours + 12 hours of clock time.
27) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97744)
Posted 9 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
I've found that this will handle CPU time problems, However, the paused BOINC applications usually do NOT release any memory they have allocated, unless you shut down BOINC. Therefore, your plan does not help if the important contention is for memory instead of for CPU time, unless you use the setting for releasing memory from BOINC applications that are not running.


Surely the paused Boinc programs would be shoved in the swap file by Windows?

You might hope so, but that's not what actually happens. Many programs load memory in sections, keeping pointers to the start of those sections. If the sections are not reloaded to the same memory address where they were before, the program is likely to crash as soon as it tries to use something in an out of place section.

Instead, BOINC normally uses a method where the programs reach a point suitable for a checkpoint, write all of the memory in use but not marked as unchangeable to a checkpoint file, then go on. If there is an interruption that requires using a checkpoint, then the unchangeable part of the program will be reloaded as if the program was about to start over, then the changeable information is reloaded from the checkpoint file with suitable adjustments to pointers to where the sections are in memory, and then the program restarts from just after the point where it previously wrote the checkpoint.

Most, but not all, BOINC programs try to keep the last two checkpoint files written, so that if there was a problem writing the most recent one, the next older one can be used instead. A few BOINC projects using very big checkpoint files erase the previous one just before they write a new one. I suspect that those are projects that do not understand the structures of their programs well enough that they can separate the changeable sections from the unchangeable sections.
28) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97738)
Posted 9 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
That would interfere with the way it recovers from times when one of the projects has no tasks available to send.

Instead, it looks back over the last few weeks, and tries to get tasks from whichever project would move it toward the new weighting.


I'm not sure I follow you. If I've made a choice that I want different weightings, I obviously want past history forgotten. I want from now on to have the ratio I set. Anything else is just confusing.

Imagine you ran project A at 10 and project B at 1. Then you decide one day that you want the reverse, A=1 and B=10. The way it works now, the history shows it's been doing way too much A, so it will consequently do B exclusively, which is not what you just asked it to do.

How do you want that plan adjusted to handle times when one of the two projects had no work to download for the last few days, or very little work like it's happened on Rosetta@home recently? Many people do not agree that the adjustment should take effect immediately, without even waiting for several tasks to be reported and receive credits.

Many people just don't have enough spare time to frequently adjust their project setting, like you appear to want to do.
29) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97737)
Posted 9 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
EricM,

Thanks, @Robert and @Grant. I've never received such prompt and good input in a forum before.
Grant, I suspect the only program I use that might tax the processor at times would be ArcGIS, which might have moments when it could be considered heavily multi-threaded. I'm out of my depth trying to determine whether I'll regret giving BOINC more resource access.
Robert, I think I'll try your 51/100 settings tip. I wonder if I should alter the memory settings?
Eric

Many of us have much more free time than usual to help due to the COVID-19 warnings about going out in public.

Also, there are many more than usual new users that need the help we know how to provide.

I'd observe what Task Manager says about how much memory is is use, and how close it is to the maximum amount BOINC is allowed to use, before changing the memory settings. It's been at least months since I found a good reason to change the BOINC memory settings on my computer.

Assume that Windows 10 uses about 1 GB of memory, so don't allow BOINC to use so much that there isn't 1 GB left if you are using Windows 10. Earlier versions of Windows use less.
30) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97719)
Posted 10 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
Typically, the computer is on 15 hours a day. Sometimes I'm working with it for much of the day, during which BOINC does not run.
Why?
Rosetta (like Seti) applications are set to run at Idle priority (the lowest level). Any other running programme of similar priority will get equal CPU resources. If it's priority is higher, then Rosetta applications will slow & even stop to allow the higher priority application to use the CPU resources.
If there is an application that is affected by having BOINC doing work in the background, you can use the Exclusive applications option to stop BOINC when just that particular application is running.

Back in the days of single core or just hyperthreaded systems, yeah you often needed to stop BOINC to allow other programmes to run OK. But with multi core/thread systems, unless the programme you are running is heavily multi threaded it just isn't necessary anymore.

I've found that this will handle CPU time problems, However, the paused BOINC applications usually do NOT release any memory they have allocated, unless you shut down BOINC. Therefore, your plan does not help if the important contention is for memory instead of for CPU time, unless you use the setting for releasing memory from BOINC applications that are not running.
31) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97715)
Posted 10 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
EricM,

@Robert, I think your comment regarding deadlines and the server determining reliability of my computer could explain at least part of the reason for Rosetta being stalled the past few days. I was away Sun-Tue, so maybe the server gave up on the partially completed work units on my machine? If the cause is something like that, it makes me think that Rosetta is less tolerant that SETI was in this regard.
Eric

It's likely that the server gave up for the partially completed tasks. This may make it think your computer is unreliable at returning results fast enough.

Rosetta@home NEEDS results from previous tasks to generate most of the next round of workunits. Also, it considers COVID-19 work urgent. This means short deadlines are likely.

SETI recently decided to pause their last few years of work to analyze the results, and think about what to try next. In other words, they do not consider their work urgent, so long deadlines are likely.

Also, you might try changing your settings to use 50% (or 51% to avoid roundoff error) of the CPUs, but 100% of the CPU time. This will make it finish each task faster, although sometimes with fewer tasks in progress.

That would increase your chances of returning tasks on time.
32) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97709)
Posted 10 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:

I turned that nonsense off. Go into Boinc's properties and change the "switch between applications" to a huge number. I set mine to a year. I do not want stuff changing before it's finished.

Thanks for the tip, Peter. I switched it from 120 minutes to 1,000 for now to see what happens, double what I've observed as the process time for a Rosetta task. And now I'm suspending my second project temporarily to see if Rosetta resumes the task when the screensaver kicks in.
Eric

If you use a huge value here, DON'T add project CPDN or project RNA World without first setting a smaller value instead. Both of these projects have tasks that run for months, so the huge value will keep any other projects from getting turns for CPU use.

Note that if you have enough main memory and have the setting to keep tasks in main memory even when not running, you won't be using the disk checkpoints except except when BOINC restarts. The project applications need to be able to adjust any timeouts when restarting from pauses, unless the timeouts are based on time when running rather than clock time.
33) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97708)
Posted 10 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
12 CPU WUs hogging up my PC, using only 1 cpu core.
I will for the time being disconnect from this project until the issue is resolved.

That probably indicates that you have told BOINC Manager that it can use only one CPU core.

In Advanced view, click on Options, then Computing preferences. Adjust the fraction of the available CPU cores (show as CPUs here), possibly adding 1% to the fraction you really want to keep roundoff from causing problems.

After adjusting this, click on Save at the bottom of that window.
34) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97707)
Posted 10 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
Peter Hucker,

[snip]

Boinc needs to reprogram the scheduler so the project weight works properly. In particular if you change the weighting, it takes days to actually do what you asked. For example, I changed from

Universe 0
LHC 0
Rosetta 1

to

Universe 1
LHC 5
Rosetta 25

I would expect to immediately see 1 Universe to every 5 LHC to every 25 Rosetta tasks running, but I didn't, not for 3 days. Boinc went utterly mental and ran almost exclusively LHC, presumably doing some weird lookback over the last week and seeing it hadn't done any. When the user changes the weighting, it should have immediate effect.


That would interfere with the way it recovers from times when one of the projects has no tasks available to send.

Instead, it looks back over the last few weeks, and tries to get tasks from whichever project would move it toward the new weighting.
35) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97706)
Posted 10 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
[H]Skillz,

Are you using this link when you try to attach?

https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/

Note the https instead of the previous http.

If not, delete what's currently in the Project URL box, and put this link there instead, before clicking Next.

If this doesn't make it work, give us more details about what version of BOINC you are using under what version of what operating system (most users use the Windows operating system).

When you enter a message, then click on Post Reply, you seldom need to enter it again. Try waiting about one minute for the server to show the message first.
36) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97705)
Posted 10 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
EricM,

If you're using the Simple View, click on View near the top of the window, then Advanced View to show more information.

When you want to go back to Simple View, click on View, then Simple View.

In Advanced View, click on Tasks to see a list of all the tasks currently on your computer. Some will show as Running, some as Waiting to run (started but not currently running; waiting for its next turn for CPU time), and some as Ready to start. There are also a few less common conditions you don't see as often.

Those in the Running condition will have time advancing in the Elapsed column, not always every second. They should have time decreasing in the Remaining column, but it can be increasing instead if the initial guess at how long it will run is sufficiently less than accurate.

The Deadline column shows when the task must be finished and returned to avoid problems.

For about one day before the deadline and for some time after the deadline, any tasks that finishes will upload its outputs and report the finish automatically. Any tasks finishing earlier than that may or may not wait. If you need to speed up an upload, click on Transfers, then some line for a file, then Retry now. This starts an attempt to upload all of the files going to the same BOINC project as the file you clicked on. The Status column shows whether the upload was blocked (usually temporarily).

Generally, if your BOINC Manager contacts the project server for any reason, it will then try to do any uploads and reports that are waiting.

If you need to speed up reporting a finished task, click on Projects, then the BOINC project the task is for, then Update. It should then try to report all finished task for that project, except any that are still waiting to finished their uploads.

To see the main event log, click on Tools, then Event Log. The main event log should then appear on the screen until you click Close at the bottom corner.

Your no longer usable messages indicate that the task is enough past its deadline that another task from the same workunit has been send to another user and that user has sent back the upload files and reported the task as finished, so the server no longer needs anything from your task any will not give you any credit for it.

Your no tasks sent message indicates that either there are no tasks available to send you, or the server has decided that your computer is not reliable enough to be worth sending any tasks for a while.

Your Project requested delay message indicates how long your BOINC Manager should wait before trying again. This is to prevent overly frequent requests from blocking access to the server for other users.

Your overdue messages indicate that the tasks is past their deadline, enough that you are unlikely to get any credit for returning them.

There is also a separate log file for each task.

You might check if you have Task Manager installed. I often use it to show problems with too many tasks trying to run at once, or not having enough memory to keep all of the tasks running.
37) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97685)
Posted 10 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
EricM,

Looks like you need to give more details about not finishing the current task. If it includes leaving a CPU core idle, that's a problem. If it's switching to running another task instead, that's normal.
38) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97682)
Posted 10 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
SolidAir79,

That looks like an error in one of the input files for the workunit.

If so, you can't fix the problem, and all other users who get copies of that workunit or any other workunit using that input file will have it crash the same way.
39) Message boards : Number crunching : Problems and Technical Issues with Rosetta@home (Message 97680)
Posted 10 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
EricM,

Rosetta@home currently has so many new users that it's not keeping up with the demand for tasks.

As for being paused mid-task while another BOINC project run, that's normal if you have more than one BOINC project providing tasks. Tasks close to their deadlines get higher priority to run, and tasks for the other project catch up on run time later.
40) Message boards : Number crunching : 0 new tasks, Rosetta? (Message 97648)
Posted 11 days ago by Profile robertmiles
Post:
CIA,

GPUGRID has gone through a list of mini-proteins lately, so it looks worth checking whether Rosetta@home's mini-protein duplicates that work, or extends it, GPUGRID did not check whether their mini-proteins were relevant to COVID-19 work, though.


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