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Ethan
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Message 12352 - Posted 20 Mar 2006 21:58:43 UTC

I mentioned this a couple months ago, but as a recap:

There are about 4 million Xboxen in the world, each with 3 seperate 2ghz processors. Within the last few days, MS has released a software development tool (geared toward games obviously, but code is code) that allows groups to develop their own xbox apps.

I'm not a programmer. How difficult would it be to use those tools to port Boinc over to the Xbox?

12 million cpu's can't be wrong :)

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060320-6420.html

-Ethan
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Message 12356 - Posted 20 Mar 2006 22:30:42 UTC - in response to Message ID 12352.
Last modified: 20 Mar 2006 22:31:12 UTC

IMO gamers are one of the most promising groups for grid computing. It would be great if the console CPUs actually have the required math precision (some projects require IEEE 754 compliant FPUs)

Wired had an article last year How Gamers Can Help Cure Cancer


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Message 29120 - Posted 10 Oct 2006 16:13:37 UTC

Any update to this? Although, isn't it 3 x 3.x ghz processors in the 360?
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Message 29124 - Posted 10 Oct 2006 16:59:42 UTC

normally consoles are idle for far less time than PCs... so I'm not sure if they'll reach the deadline
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Message 29130 - Posted 10 Oct 2006 19:03:36 UTC - in response to Message ID 29124.

normally consoles are idle for far less time than PCs... so I'm not sure if they'll reach the deadline


Don;t forget the 360 isn't a console in the sense of a games console.
I'ts also a media player (can stream from pc's etc, play dvd listen to music) and web brower. So they tend to be idle for the people who would actually see or bother about Rosetta@Home.
For the people that just use it as a gaming console, well they''ll not be bothered either way.
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Message 29139 - Posted 10 Oct 2006 21:48:57 UTC - in response to Message ID 29120.

Any update to this? Although, isn't it 3 x 3.x ghz processors in the 360?

3x 3.2GHz ;)
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Message 29151 - Posted 11 Oct 2006 3:55:33 UTC - in response to Message ID 12352.

I mentioned this a couple months ago, but as a recap:

There are about 4 million Xboxen in the world, each with 3 seperate 2ghz processors. Within the last few days, MS has released a software development tool (geared toward games obviously, but code is code) that allows groups to develop their own xbox apps.

I'm not a programmer. How difficult would it be to use those tools to port Boinc over to the Xbox?

12 million cpu's can't be wrong :)

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060320-6420.html

-Ethan


we have been discussing this idea with Microsoft quite a bit over the past several weeks; I will keep everybody posted.

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Message 29152 - Posted 11 Oct 2006 3:59:55 UTC - in response to Message ID 29151.


we have been discussing this idea with Microsoft quite a bit over the past several weeks; I will keep everybody posted.


That is very intersting!!!
Thanks for the update!

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Message 29165 - Posted 11 Oct 2006 15:49:59 UTC

Now I am excited, the people over at F@H have all the fun, time for us to get a little action :)
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Message 38709 - Posted 30 Mar 2007 2:08:14 UTC
Last modified: 30 Mar 2007 2:10:33 UTC

After several months of inactivity, the topic of this post has been dugg:P link Are there any updates to this story?
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Message 38718 - Posted 30 Mar 2007 4:01:23 UTC

I would love to see Rosetta@home come to the 360. I'd definently run it when I wasn't using my 360. As long as I had access to my xbox live guide (the window that pops up when you hit the guide button on the controller) then I'd probably run it when I wanted to open a private chat with friends, or just listen to music.

Soon I'm moving and the 360 will be relocated to a high-traffic room. Most people in there will be wanting to watch TV (parents like TV more than games, go figure), so I could just leave my xbox 360 on running Rosetta@home, while the rest of the family checks out the boob tube. Then later I'll interrupt the rosetta process for some time of just me & my xbox :).
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Message 39884 - Posted 25 Apr 2007 23:14:33 UTC - in response to Message ID 29124.

normally consoles are idle for far less time than PCs... so I'm not sure if they'll reach the deadline


I run Rosetta in the background on my PC constantly with no (major) loss of speed, etc. Given the sheer processing power of the 360, surely this could be applied also?
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Message 39896 - Posted 26 Apr 2007 4:13:24 UTC

I just met yesterday with Tony Hey, the corporate vice president for technical computing at Microsoft, to discuss this possibility further. Tony and Microsoft have been incredibly supportive of our efforts so far, and he is going to help us try to make this become a reality in the not too distant future.
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Message 39900 - Posted 26 Apr 2007 5:15:23 UTC - in response to Message ID 39896.

Great news!
I'm happy to contribute in a project which has great goals and awesome support!

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Message 39901 - Posted 26 Apr 2007 5:27:16 UTC - in response to Message ID 39900.

Here's a link to Mr. Hey's profile at MS:

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/tonyhey/default.mspx
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Message 39984 - Posted 28 Apr 2007 9:22:10 UTC

Hello All,

Thought I might add a slightly different spin on this topic.

I have been crunching on folding@home for a few weeks now with a PLAYSTATION 3.
The feeling I am getting is that SONY seems commited to distributed (public) computing and that the folding@home is just going to be one project.

They appear to be wanting to set up something along the line of a World Community Grid. So maybe Baker Lab should look into using the PS 3 network also.

As an owner of both a PS3 and a XBOX360. I can tell you with a high degree of certainty, that the PS3 blows the XBOX360 right out of the water as far as raw computational ability. Cell uses seven cores for heavy number crunching and one POWERPC 64 bit core for housekeeping.

Also PS3 has no hardware issues (as of yet been running 24/7 for 3 weeks now) were as my xbox360 has had issues (mainly) with heat and mainly from Gears of War.

Hope this helps, may ask MR Hey? to find a xbox builder or design with a more reliable hardware config. Really is frustrating to have the box taking a dump right in the middle of Gears.
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Message 39993 - Posted 28 Apr 2007 13:18:47 UTC - in response to Message ID 39984.

Hello All,

Thought I might add a slightly different spin on this topic.

I have been crunching on folding@home for a few weeks now with a PLAYSTATION 3.
The feeling I am getting is that SONY seems commited to distributed (public) computing and that the folding@home is just going to be one project.

They appear to be wanting to set up something along the line of a World Community Grid. So maybe Baker Lab should look into using the PS 3 network also.

As an owner of both a PS3 and a XBOX360. I can tell you with a high degree of certainty, that the PS3 blows the XBOX360 right out of the water as far as raw computational ability. Cell uses seven cores for heavy number crunching and one POWERPC 64 bit core for housekeeping.

Also PS3 has no hardware issues (as of yet been running 24/7 for 3 weeks now) were as my xbox360 has had issues (mainly) with heat and mainly from Gears of War.

Hope this helps, may ask MR Hey? to find a xbox builder or design with a more reliable hardware config. Really is frustrating to have the box taking a dump right in the middle of Gears.

I read that sony are looking to sell processor time on the PS3s to businesses so it's not entirely altruistic!

As far as the PS3 being more powerful, I believe that while that's true in raw numbers, the xbox should be easier to program for, and I believe all 512MB of the RAM should be accessible for crunching whereas the PS3 only has 256MB available.

As for heat, I believe it's an issue for a lot of xboxes out there, but fortunately new xboxes are based on 65nm CPUs and so don't produce so much heat, but it could be an issue for the 90nm ones.

For Rosetta, where the code is continually changing, I'd expect the xbox to be a better bet because it's easier to program for and the CPU architecture is PowerPC based which there's already a client for.
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Message 40059 - Posted 29 Apr 2007 18:14:36 UTC

I find it very exciting to think that game consoles could in the near future do huge quantities of heavy scientific lifting. Very cool!
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Message 40824 - Posted 12 May 2007 14:55:09 UTC
Last modified: 12 May 2007 14:55:39 UTC

I think it's a great idea to put resources into making crunching clients for game consoles or for that matter, any consumer electronic with a processor. I just posted a HOWTO for installing BOINC on the Apple TV. The thing just sits there idling all day, and only uses some CPU power when it's actually playing a movie. It's 1GHZ, so it's not much, but there is power in numbers! The best part is when I play a movie, BOINC just slows down, and my movies do not skip.

In case your interested, here is HOWTO setup BOINC on the Apple TV:
http://www.appletvbbs.com/showthread.php?t=123

I don't own the development kit for xbox 360, but it seems trivial to compile one of the existing BOINC clients with XNA. Is there some other hardware/software limitation to stop this from happening?

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Message 40838 - Posted 12 May 2007 17:01:19 UTC - in response to Message ID 40824.
Last modified: 12 May 2007 17:04:27 UTC

I just posted a HOWTO for installing BOINC on the Apple TV. The thing just sits there idling all day, and only uses some CPU power when it's actually playing a movie. It's 1GHZ, so it's not much, but there is power in numbers! The best part is when I play a movie, BOINC just slows down, and my movies do not skip.

Good work! I believe it's a low voltage Pentium-M so it should be quite an efficient cruncher! I think you should post this as a self-titled thread in number-crunching so it's more visible.

I don't own the development kit for xbox 360, but it seems trivial to compile one of the existing BOINC clients with XNA. Is there some other hardware/software limitation to stop this from happening?

The 360 would be a real force if the xenos gpu could be utilised as well as the three cores which probably wouldn't be trivial... Although of course getting the three cores crunching would be a good start!
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Message 40936 - Posted 14 May 2007 9:37:26 UTC - in response to Message ID 29151.

we have been discussing this idea with Microsoft quite a bit over the past several weeks; I will keep everybody posted.


Looks like MS has choosen for F@h :(
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=7238

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Message 41032 - Posted 15 May 2007 20:34:37 UTC

cureseeker, i've seen that elsewhere and it is just MS taking jobs at the PS3 and Sony.
They say they may look in to it for PR reasons if and when the need arises... ;-)

Nowhere have they actually said they are actively looking into it and producing a client... It just my cpu is as good as yours and we have the gpu oh and look a bigger userbase talk :)


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Message 41321 - Posted 22 May 2007 20:25:51 UTC

*cough* GPU *cough*

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Message 41889 - Posted 6 Jun 2007 7:20:17 UTC - in response to Message ID 41321.

Any updates to this?

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Message 41893 - Posted 6 Jun 2007 8:33:41 UTC - in response to Message ID 41889.

why is microsofts involvement needed? can't anyone write programs for it?

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Message 41900 - Posted 6 Jun 2007 15:28:04 UTC - in response to Message ID 41893.

why is microsofts involvement needed? can't anyone write programs for it?


Yes, via XNA but I don't know it's license restrictions also it is an unknown platform from the Rosetta developers point of view.
Rom Walton had a look at XNA to see about porting BOINC to it, but there where some sort of complication (license ?), ease of doing it.

Other than using XNA I don't think any of the devs at boinc or rosetta know where to start.

So if you want you can port it across.
email rosetta admin or the mods about access to the rosetta source code.
pop to http://boinc.berkeley.edu/index.php to get the source and info from the boinc developers and get porting it. it is fully open source.
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Message 41931 - Posted 7 Jun 2007 18:36:58 UTC
Last modified: 7 Jun 2007 18:40:17 UTC

I'm going to take a jab at this but my guess is Microsoft is waiting for new the chips in the 360 to come out before they release a folding program for it..?


What i don't understand is if its open source why hasn't anyone even bothered to make a folding program of any sort for the 360? PS3 has a ton for it besides just folding@home


Really sucks because my computer is not all that fast and buying a console is alot cheaper than buying a insane rig, but i have been folding every night espically when i go to bed, doing all i can at the moment :-)

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Message 42143 - Posted 13 Jun 2007 17:33:38 UTC

I dont want to start a "console war" here but I really dont think the 360 can handle the heat that is generated when you are running a program like this. I work at Target and I have seen numerous people who are on their 2nd or 3rd 360 already, simply due to heat issues killing the machines. The PS3 is much better in this area and really has no heat issues. I have been running Folding@Home on my pretty much non stop since April 20 and already have over 130 WUs done.

Nothing against the 360 per se (ok the controller makes me nauseous :) ) but they need to fix the heat issues.
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Message 42145 - Posted 13 Jun 2007 17:55:33 UTC - in response to Message ID 42143.

there's a new cooling system: http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=7667
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Message 43063 - Posted 2 Jul 2007 20:50:54 UTC - in response to Message ID 39993.


As far as the PS3 being more powerful, I believe that while that's true in raw numbers, the xbox should be easier to program for, and I believe all 512MB of the RAM should be accessible for crunching whereas the PS3 only has 256MB available.


I need to touch this one. You're 100% right, but for 100% the wrong reasons.

The PS3 (cell) is far harder to code for, but it's because of the limitations of the SPU's, most notably memory. Each SPU has only 256K of local store, but it runs at effectively L1 cache speeds. So to get performance for Rosetta, we would need to take a WU, chop it into bite sized chunks which can run for a couple of ms on an SPU, while only using 80 to 100k of data.

That allows double buffering of data: DMA out N-1 results, DMA in N+1 data, all while N runs. At 100k per WU, that's 200K gone, which leaves 56K for code and "incidentals".

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Message 43084 - Posted 3 Jul 2007 9:23:23 UTC - in response to Message ID 43063.


As far as the PS3 being more powerful, I believe that while that's true in raw numbers, the xbox should be easier to program for, and I believe all 512MB of the RAM should be accessible for crunching whereas the PS3 only has 256MB available.


I need to touch this one. You're 100% right, but for 100% the wrong reasons.

The PS3 (cell) is far harder to code for, but it's because of the limitations of the SPU's, most notably memory. Each SPU has only 256K of local store, but it runs at effectively L1 cache speeds. So to get performance for Rosetta, we would need to take a WU, chop it into bite sized chunks which can run for a couple of ms on an SPU, while only using 80 to 100k of data.

That allows double buffering of data: DMA out N-1 results, DMA in N+1 data, all while N runs. At 100k per WU, that's 200K gone, which leaves 56K for code and "incidentals".

surely the 256MB of RAM will be as much of a problem? If you have to have one thread per SPU then where are you going to store these threads while they're not in cache, seeing as the PS3 OS plus one rosetta thread will probably use all of that memory?
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Message 43107 - Posted 3 Jul 2007 16:37:31 UTC - in response to Message ID 42143.

I dont want to start a "console war" here but I really dont think the 360 can handle the heat that is generated when you are running a program like this. I work at Target and I have seen numerous people who are on their 2nd or 3rd 360 already, simply due to heat issues killing the machines. The PS3 is much better in this area and really has no heat issues. I have been running Folding@Home on my pretty much non stop since April 20 and already have over 130 WUs done.

Nothing against the 360 per se (ok the controller makes me nauseous :) ) but they need to fix the heat issues.



2nd or 3rd ?

There's one guy on his TWELFTH 360

/me wouldn't touch em with a bargepole !!

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Message 45015 - Posted 16 Aug 2007 0:28:53 UTC - in response to Message ID 12352.

I mentioned this a couple months ago, but as a recap:

There are about 4 million Xboxen in the world, each with 3 seperate 2ghz processors. Within the last few days, MS has released a software development tool (geared toward games obviously, but code is code) that allows groups to develop their own xbox apps.

I'm not a programmer. How difficult would it be to use those tools to port Boinc over to the Xbox?

12 million cpu's can't be wrong :)

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060320-6420.html

-Ethan

What is up with Rosetta. Over a year and half, and NO PROGRESS on this. What a shame.

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Message 45034 - Posted 16 Aug 2007 9:06:14 UTC - in response to Message ID 45015.

I mentioned this a couple months ago, but as a recap:

There are about 4 million Xboxen in the world, each with 3 seperate 2ghz processors. Within the last few days, MS has released a software development tool (geared toward games obviously, but code is code) that allows groups to develop their own xbox apps.

I'm not a programmer. How difficult would it be to use those tools to port Boinc over to the Xbox?

12 million cpu's can't be wrong :)

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060320-6420.html

-Ethan

What is up with Rosetta. Over a year and half, and NO PROGRESS on this. What a shame.


Have you tried to help them ?
While it's nice to get an XBOX360 version, benchamrks of programs converted to just run on it use say XNA http://www.primatelabs.ca/blog/2007/08/xbox-360-performance-august-2007/ show the speed usage may not be so good.
It would take much more effort than it's probably worth unless Microsoft or someone else does it for them and gives them an easy program to compile with... Don't forget it would need to be compiled every time they update the rosetta client. It's a lot of testing for something that only has short term appeal at the moment. Same thing for the PS3.
It would make more sence currently to get a 64bit native client up and running, optimised to use 64bit if it can take any advantage (speed/accuracy/really really large memory tasks) Since we'll all have to end up using 64bit at some time int he future ;-)

You must remember that Rosetta (and the code) is much larger than just Rosetta@home. Also time and manpower may well be a problem.
Come on Seti@home, a simple program, is only just getting ported by individuals to GPU's. I see not client running on the PS3 or XBOX or iPhone ;-) yet and that a simple program.
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Message 46127 - Posted 13 Sep 2007 15:03:01 UTC - in response to Message ID 45015.

I mentioned this a couple months ago, but as a recap:

There are about 4 million Xboxen in the world, each with 3 seperate 2ghz processors. Within the last few days, MS has released a software development tool (geared toward games obviously, but code is code) that allows groups to develop their own xbox apps.

I'm not a programmer. How difficult would it be to use those tools to port Boinc over to the Xbox?

12 million cpu's can't be wrong :)

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060320-6420.html

-Ethan

What is up with Rosetta. Over a year and half, and NO PROGRESS on this. What a shame.


indeed it is a shame, I can't see why they haven't looked into it completely, I even made a petition XD

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Message 46136 - Posted 13 Sep 2007 18:18:06 UTC

You make some good points, Fluffychicken.

I do think that porting to GPUs (if it's possible with the kind of science that Rosetta does) would be the best thing to do right now, as long as it isn't too specific to a single GPU card and the code will be able to be used for a long time on progressively faster cards.

That could give quite a big TFLOPS boost to the project and allow Dr. Baker & co run more projects in parallel and get better results on them too (lets kick butt at CASP 8!).
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Message 46614 - Posted 19 Sep 2007 15:01:23 UTC

i read somewere that in order to run boinc on your ps3 you need to install linux on it, so if you could tho the same with your xbox, i thought it had a harddisk or something like that, you can just run linux and boinc for linux, so no new programming needed.

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Message 47770 - Posted 16 Oct 2007 0:37:21 UTC

I guess "David Baker" has failed with Microsoft.

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Message 48429 - Posted 6 Nov 2007 23:34:16 UTC - in response to Message ID 47770.
Last modified: 6 Nov 2007 23:34:59 UTC

And judging from the lack of responses to my questions, doesn't even want to try with Sony.

I guess "David Baker" has failed with Microsoft.

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Message 48431 - Posted 7 Nov 2007 0:24:56 UTC - in response to Message ID 46614.

i read somewere that in order to run boinc on your ps3 you need to install linux on it, so if you could tho the same with your xbox, i thought it had a harddisk or something like that, you can just run linux and boinc for linux, so no new programming needed.

(i know it's an old post) installing linux on the xbox isn't a trivial task due to the hypervisor and other security measures - free60.org are working on it but it's not possible ATM (in any worthwhile context) without MS's approval...
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Message 48435 - Posted 7 Nov 2007 3:22:16 UTC - in response to Message ID 48431.
Last modified: 7 Nov 2007 3:33:31 UTC

that, and it uses proprietary hardware for upgrades / add-on's, whereas the Sony Playstation was desgined as an open platform, and uses commercially available hardware (i.e., hdd's, memory cards, etc).

As zombie67 pointed out in this post:

"To be clear, F@H, PS3GRID, and yoyo@home applications all use the SPEs. SIMAP has a generic PPC/linux application that will run on the PS3, but it uses only the PPC/PPE controller, and has the expecte performance of a G4 Mac. Someone on SETI@home created a non-SPE app, but I haven't seen any further development with it since S@H moved to multibeam. Hydrogen@home has plans for a PS3 application, but no details or timeline."

Which are some of thre reasons I am disappointed by all the silence from the Project to my questions.

(i know it's an old post) installing linux on the xbox isn't a trivial task due to the hypervisor and other security measures - free60.org are working on it but it's not possible ATM (in any worthwhile context) without MS's approval...

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Message 48456 - Posted 7 Nov 2007 21:59:51 UTC - in response to Message ID 48435.

that, and it uses proprietary hardware for upgrades / add-on's, whereas the Sony Playstation was desgined as an open platform, and uses commercially available hardware (i.e., hdd's, memory cards, etc).

As zombie67 pointed out in this post:

"To be clear, F@H, PS3GRID, and yoyo@home applications all use the SPEs. SIMAP has a generic PPC/linux application that will run on the PS3, but it uses only the PPC/PPE controller, and has the expecte performance of a G4 Mac. Someone on SETI@home created a non-SPE app, but I haven't seen any further development with it since S@H moved to multibeam. Hydrogen@home has plans for a PS3 application, but no details or timeline."

Which are some of thre reasons I am disappointed by all the silence from the Project to my questions.

(i know it's an old post) installing linux on the xbox isn't a trivial task due to the hypervisor and other security measures - free60.org are working on it but it's not possible ATM (in any worthwhile context) without MS's approval...


The 360 uses a PPC CPU, a standard HD, ethernet, and USB so i don't think any of that's a limitation???

From free60.org:

Linux Support

* We have full SMP support, so we can use all three cores.
* However, we currently need to disable the secondary threads because of a yet-to-be analyzed stability issue.
* The CPU is quite slow on general purpose code. Due to the non out-of-order execution core, it heavily relies on the compiler to do proper optimizations. GCC currently doesn't know how to do this, resulting in running but very inefficient code.
* The Cell people are working on ppu-gcc, from which the Xenon will benefit as well, as the PPC cores is quite similiar to the Cell's PPU.

I don't know how a lack of out-of-order would affect rosetta?
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Message 48460 - Posted 7 Nov 2007 23:34:21 UTC - in response to Message ID 48456.
Last modified: 8 Nov 2007 0:02:05 UTC

My understanding, and I am willing to be proven wrong, is that the xBox360 uses a proprietary hard drive sold by M$ at a very premium price (~ $100 for 20gb), as opposed to Sony's PS/3 which uses standard 2.5" laptop drives.

My understanding, and I am willing to be proven wrong, is that the xBox360 uses a proprietary memory card sold by M$ at a very premium price (~ $50 for 512mb), as opposed to Sony's PS/3 which, as I understand it:

"The PS3 doesn't have an external (moveable) memory card, it saves onto the hard drive like a computer, its all inside the PS3.

There are other memory cards/flash drives that can be used, I'm not sure which but most are media storage/flash disk type hardware."


The 360 uses a PPC CPU, a standard HD, ethernet, and USB so i don't think any of that's a limitation???




Sony's PS/3 was designed from the beginning as an open platform, capable of running linux.

The xBox must either get "permission" from M$, or put together an entire third-party effort such as free60.org


From free60.org:

Linux Support

* However, we currently need to disable the secondary threads because of a yet-to-be analyzed stability issue.

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Message 49050 - Posted 25 Nov 2007 18:09:05 UTC

the 360 has 3 3.2Ghz asymmetrical cores, but Rosetta probably would only be able to run on 2 of those at best for any extended amount of time. Keep in mind that Gears of War, the Xbox 360 game, was the first game to utilize all three cores, and Oblivion, Kameo and such were running on two cores. I'd be weary of running a 360 for any extended amount of time due to it's terrible airflow, but that might change with those new "falcon" 65nm processors in the newer xboxs. If they can get it to run stably on the 360 though, I'm sure it would be worth the effort because a greater percentage of owners would run it than on any other console. Why? Because so many people have the 360 connected to the internet for Xbox Live. This is as opposed to the Wii, PS3 where there are a good deal of people who play said consoles regularly but don't have it connected to the internet whatsoever. I mean, you could release R@H for the PS2 thinking that no matter how bad its hardware is, it would pay off because the PS2 sold ~105 million. But how many people have it running linux and connected to the internet? Compare that to Xbox live, where a large percentage of owners have it connected via broadband and download stuff regularly.

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Message 49056 - Posted 25 Nov 2007 22:03:30 UTC - in response to Message ID 49050.

(1) Sony worked with Stanford, and brought the PS/3 to Folding@Home. Enabling F@H to break the petaflop barrier with the PS/3's alone.

(2) The PS/3 is able to use all 6 of it's SPE's on Yoyo@Home (OGR-25).

(3) The PS/3 is able to use all 6 of it's SPE's on PS3Grid.

(4) The PS/3 is able to run Simap.

(5) How many existing dc/Boinc projects is the MS xBox presently running?

(6) Sony designed the PS/3 with an "open" architecture. Linux is easily installable. MS xBox is "closed" architecture.

(7) Sony designed the PS/3 with commercially available hardware (2.5" laptop drives, usb memory sticks). MS xBox is proprietary.

(8) The new CBE has double precision math. I don't know, does the "falcon"?

(9) MS is spending $1,000,000,000 on repairing xBox's for heat related failures. Even if this has been "fixed" in current consoles, there's probably a lot of people with long memories, "once bitten, twice shy". You'll lose these people.

This is as opposed to the Wii, PS3

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Message 49251 - Posted 30 Nov 2007 23:58:31 UTC

Stumbled across this posting on the BoincStats forum:

"The PS3 has a special function to let you install another operating system. In contrast, the xbox360 has many special mechanisms to make sure you can't get any software running on it unless it's digitally signed by Microsoft or a licensed game-maker. That includes Linux.

Of course there's already hacks that let you get Linux on it (search "free60" ), but it's not easy to install, and it might be illegal. It won't work if you have an up-to-date xbox kernel as it relies on a security bug in older kernels, and you need to patch a game disc image (which involves having the original game in the first place). Maybe also remove a resistor from the mainboard."

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Message 50182 - Posted 30 Dec 2007 14:09:06 UTC
Last modified: 30 Dec 2007 14:09:54 UTC

The XBOX360 was hacked and it is posible to let Linux running on it : http://www.free60.org.
As reading the hardware specs, I think it is posible to let the existing Linux PPC BOINC client, SIMAP Linux PPC applications or Linux SETI application running on the XBOX.
Am I right, that the Linux PPC/Power binaries should work at the Xbox with Linux ?
Is anyone interested to try it out ?
But, I am not shure, if the hardware problems of the XBOX makes it imposible to let CPU intensive tasks running on it.
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Message 50415 - Posted 7 Jan 2008 1:54:04 UTC - in response to Message ID 50182.
Last modified: 7 Jan 2008 1:54:52 UTC

As per my previous post:

"but it's not easy to install, and it might be illegal."

I don't know how many projects would get involved when MS would likely have a legitimate legal claim. (and "yes", i do have an american law degree)


The XBOX360 was hacked and it is posible to let Linux running on it : http://www.free60.org.

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Message 50420 - Posted 7 Jan 2008 9:03:25 UTC - in response to Message ID 50415.

As per my previous post:

"but it's not easy to install, and it might be illegal."

I don't know how many projects would get involved when MS would likely have a legitimate legal claim. (and "yes", i do have an american law degree)


The XBOX360 was hacked and it is posible to let Linux running on it : http://www.free60.org.

Why it should be illegal ? - You own the hardware and not M$. So it is your own responability what you do with your own hardware.
Also the most worse thing is to loss guaranty from M$.
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Message 50423 - Posted 7 Jan 2008 9:52:56 UTC - in response to Message ID 50420.
Last modified: 7 Jan 2008 10:06:51 UTC

Why it should be illegal ?



At best, attempts to install Linux on an xBox voids the warranty, and falls into a gray area. At worst, its illegal.

There are no such concerns with the PS/3. Yellow Dog Linux is the "unofficial" linux distro of choice for the PS/3, and installing it won't void your warranty.



If you were a Boinc platform, with little extra funds to potentially utilize to retain legal counsel and set aside for a potential judgment against you...

which platform would YOU choose?



And don't forget that MS is spending $1,000,000,000 to repair xBoxes for heat-related hardware failures.

And what do Boinc projects do? Max out the cpu, and generate maximum heat.

I could see some crazy donor whose xBox suffers a heat-related failure finding an equally crazy lawyer to sue a Boinc project for the damage, since they should have known the xBox platform would cause that to occur.

Likely to win? No, but the Boinc project would still have to pay to defend it self.



Again, I ask: which platform would YOU choose?


Many times, the threat of suing is just as effective as suing



xBox Modification - Is All of This Legal?

"The "Free-X" group released its exploit amid threats from Microsoft to sue them..."



Microsoft approval sought for Xbox Linux project

"What this group is effectively asking Microsoft to do is to facilitate the running of unlicensed software on the Xbox - a system which is already subsidised to the tune of about $150 per unit in the hopes that it will eventually pay back its costs through software licensing revenues. Allowing Linux to run on the system would be an open invitation to computer users everywhere to buy Xboxes as low-cost, highly subsidised PCs rather than as games consoles - a scenario which Microsoft is desperately trying to avoid by cracking down on mod chips."


Hackers use Xbox for more than games

"installing Linux and building media hubs fall into the gray area of what rights owners have to change a technology once they've paid for it."

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Message 50476 - Posted 9 Jan 2008 2:03:11 UTC - in response to Message ID 50423.

Why would it be illegal to install linux on an XBox? Same reason reverse-engineering your Intel CPU is illegal, or more closely, the same reason hacking DRM is (often) illegal; not everything is about physical possession. There are tons of IP laws that muddy stuff like this up.
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Message 50529 - Posted 10 Jan 2008 13:59:23 UTC - in response to Message ID 50476.

Why would it be illegal to install linux on an XBox? Same reason reverse-engineering your Intel CPU is illegal, or more closely, the same reason hacking DRM is (often) illegal; not everything is about physical possession. There are tons of IP laws that muddy stuff like this up.


none of the things you mentioned are illegal.
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Message 50535 - Posted 10 Jan 2008 17:36:20 UTC - in response to Message ID 50529.
Last modified: 10 Jan 2008 17:40:32 UTC

oh no?

Dmitry Sklyarov

none of the things you mentioned are illegal.

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Message 50538 - Posted 10 Jan 2008 18:15:46 UTC - in response to Message ID 50535.

to summarise, correct me if im wrong, im the 16 yo here :P

microsoft has copyright of the OS of the xbox, and copyright of the xbox that only microsoft's OS can be used. so installing another OS is violating copyright laws.

oh no?

Dmitry Sklyarov

none of the things you mentioned are illegal.

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Message 50541 - Posted 10 Jan 2008 18:41:04 UTC - in response to Message ID 50538.
Last modified: 10 Jan 2008 18:42:33 UTC

until the issue is decided in a court, there is no "absolute" answer.

microsoft would likely agree with your statement.

free60 would likely disagree with your statement.


now the question is, who wants to spend a whole bunch of time and money, to determine who is correct?

a boinc project that is considering the use of a gaming console? probably not.


thus, one more reason why the sony ps/3 would be a better choice among gaming consoles for use as a cruncher.

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Message 50544 - Posted 10 Jan 2008 18:44:50 UTC - in response to Message ID 50535.

oh no?

Dmitry Sklyarov

none of the things you mentioned are illegal.


Fine, it's arguably illegal in some places. US law only applies in the US.
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Message 50546 - Posted 10 Jan 2008 18:46:16 UTC - in response to Message ID 50541.

until the issue is decided in a court, there is no "absolute" answer.

microsoft would likely agree with your statement.

free60 would likely disagree with your statement.


now the question is, who wants to spend a whole bunch of time and money, to determine who is correct?

a boinc project that is considering the use of a gaming console? probably not.


thus, one more reason why the sony ps/3 would be a better choice among gaming consoles for use as a cruncher.


well the ps3 is ofc. a nice platform, but if we wait for this trial and the outcome is that microsoft is wrong. then it would mean we could do this, and then i dont think you have to make a lot of changes, run linux on your 360 and then install boinc under linux.

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Message 50551 - Posted 10 Jan 2008 21:16:16 UTC - in response to Message ID 50544.
Last modified: 10 Jan 2008 21:18:00 UTC

Have you researched the Sklyarov matter?

Apparently, the United States government would seem to disagree with you, to wit:

US law CAN apply outside the US.


That is one of the "interesting" things about Sklyarov's arrest.


I am not saying that I agree with such a position of the US government, only that the US government disagrees with your position.


oh no?

Dmitry Sklyarov

none of the things you mentioned are illegal.


Fine, it's arguably illegal in some places. US law only applies in the US.

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Message 50552 - Posted 10 Jan 2008 21:29:35 UTC - in response to Message ID 50546.

That is one of my points. Currently, there is no "trial". No one wants to spend the time or money in court.

"Maybe" if free60.org succeeds, and it becomes very popular, and it causes Microsoft to sell less games (remember, MS loses money with each xBox they sell, and "hope" to make money with the sale of games. If people
buy the xBox as a cheap linux computer, or home theater system, and then don't buy games, it could be argued that MS has been financially "harmed"), then MAYBE there will be a court case.

Too much uncertainity. And if you were a financially poor Boinc project, wouldn't you want "certainty" that you wouldn't be liable for encouraging the allegedly illegal use of a particular gaming console?

The Sony PS/3 can provide you with that "certainty", the MS xBox (until MS says otherwise) can't.


but if we wait for this trial and the outcome is that microsoft is wrong.




Have you investigated this? I believe you have to "hardware hack" to get free60 linux to work.

How many average families that own a xBox are going to "hardware hack" in order to run Boinc?

The hack is: "It won't work if you have an up-to-date xbox kernel as it relies on a security bug in older kernels, and you need to patch a game disc image (which involves having the original game in the first place). Maybe also remove a resistor from the mainboard."


and the outcome is that microsoft is wrong. then it would mean we could do this, and then i dont think you have to make a lot of changes

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Message 50554 - Posted 10 Jan 2008 22:42:29 UTC - in response to Message ID 50551.

Have you researched the Sklyarov matter?

Apparently, the United States government would seem to disagree with you, to wit:

US law CAN apply outside the US.


That is one of the "interesting" things about Sklyarov's arrest.


I am not saying that I agree with such a position of the US government, only that the US government disagrees with your position.


No, I have not researched it, I must confess. However, many large companies (including Microsoft) have been trying to shut down 'The Pirate Bay', citing, the millennium act and endlessly threatening with law suits. They have failed because Pirate Bay simply replies (usually in a childish and vulgar manner) that it doesn't apply in Sweden. Maybe it works in Russia, because Russia doesn't have much of a justice system?
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Message 50555 - Posted 10 Jan 2008 23:41:59 UTC - in response to Message ID 50554.

Have you researched the Sklyarov matter?

Apparently, the United States government would seem to disagree with you, to wit:

US law CAN apply outside the US.


That is one of the "interesting" things about Sklyarov's arrest.


I am not saying that I agree with such a position of the US government, only that the US government disagrees with your position.


No, I have not researched it, I must confess. However, many large companies (including Microsoft) have been trying to shut down 'The Pirate Bay', citing, the millennium act and endlessly threatening with law suits. They have failed because Pirate Bay simply replies (usually in a childish and vulgar manner) that it doesn't apply in Sweden. Maybe it works in Russia, because Russia doesn't have much of a justice system?


Regardless, Rosetta *is* in the US, so unless you can talk UW into moving to Sweden, this probably isn't going to happen.
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Message 50556 - Posted 11 Jan 2008 0:25:30 UTC - in response to Message ID 50554.
Last modified: 11 Jan 2008 0:27:10 UTC

Have they really "failed" ?


From Wikipedia:

"On May 31, 2006, the site's servers, located in Stockholm, were raided by Swedish police, causing it to be offline for three days.

The raid, alleged to be politically motivated and under pressure from the MPAA...

Swedish prosecutors have announced that charges will be filed before the end of January 2008 against five individuals concerned."



have been trying to shut down 'The Pirate Bay', citing, the millennium act and endlessly threatening with law suits. They have failed because Pirate Bay simply replies (usually in a childish and vulgar manner) that it doesn't apply in Sweden.

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Message 50567 - Posted 11 Jan 2008 13:15:38 UTC - in response to Message ID 50556.
Last modified: 11 Jan 2008 13:21:17 UTC

Have they really "failed" ?


From Wikipedia:

"On May 31, 2006, the site's servers, located in Stockholm, were raided by Swedish police, causing it to be offline for three days.

The raid, alleged to be politically motivated and under pressure from the MPAA...

Swedish prosecutors have announced that charges will be filed before the end of January 2008 against five individuals concerned."


Yes, they have really failed. the raid was a big embarrassment to the swedish police, and they found nothing they could use in it. Pirate bay has been threatened constantly with legal charges since it was created, to no effect.

Regardless, Rosetta *is* in the US, so unless you can talk UW into moving to Sweden, this probably isn't going to happen.


good point.
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Message 50568 - Posted 11 Jan 2008 13:43:13 UTC - in response to Message ID 50567.

What about this part, January 2008 is not yet over:

"Swedish prosecutors have announced that charges will be filed before the end of January 2008 against five individuals concerned."


Have they really "failed" ?


From Wikipedia:

"On May 31, 2006, the site's servers, located in Stockholm, were raided by Swedish police, causing it to be offline for three days.

The raid, alleged to be politically motivated and under pressure from the MPAA...

Swedish prosecutors have announced that charges will be filed before the end of January 2008 against five individuals concerned."


Yes, they have really failed. the raid was a big embarrassment to the swedish police, and they found nothing they could use in it. Pirate bay has been threatened constantly with legal charges since it was created, to no effect.

Regardless, Rosetta *is* in the US, so unless you can talk UW into moving to Sweden, this probably isn't going to happen.


good point.

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Message 50569 - Posted 11 Jan 2008 13:55:18 UTC - in response to Message ID 50568.

What about this part, January 2008 is not yet over:

"Swedish prosecutors have announced that charges will be filed before the end of January 2008 against five individuals concerned."


I guess we'll know by the end of January, but like i said, this is nothing new. They've been under these kind of threats constantly, and they've been completely empty so far. They haven't had a leg to stand on, and no laws have changed, so I doubt they do now.

Most religions have been preaching Armageddon will come within a few years throughout history, why should one start taking them seriously now?


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Message 50584 - Posted 11 Jan 2008 20:06:53 UTC - in response to Message ID 50569.
Last modified: 11 Jan 2008 20:08:51 UTC

We're getting way OT here.

But the point remains: if a DC Project had to make a decision to select, from a legal / liability perspective, either the the MS xBox or Sony PS/3 to port its code to, the choice is clearly the PS/3.

Don't misunderstand me, while I own two ps/3's, IF there was also a way to bring the xBox into DC, great !!! We could use all the horsepower possible.

But at the present time, for this and other reasons already discussed, any effort is best expended on the PS/3, not the xBox.


Most religions have been preaching Armageddon will come within a few years throughout history, why should one start taking them seriously now?

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Message 50866 - Posted 21 Jan 2008 14:59:06 UTC
Last modified: 21 Jan 2008 15:02:46 UTC

Real story of Xbox 360 RRODs outed

Xbox 360
The Seattle Post-Intelligencer has a very interesting interview with someone close to the RROD failures that the Xbox 360 has suffered since its earliest incarnation.

On failure rates the source states: "It's around 30p er cent, and all will probably fail early. This quarter they are expecting a million failures, most of those Xenons. Some of those are repeat failures. Life expectancy is all over the map because the design has very little margin for most of the important parameters." Xenon was the code-name for the first motherboard design used in the system.

Regarding quality assurance, the insider doesn't fill us with any more confidence. "MS has under resourced that product unit in all engineering areas since the very beginning. Especially in engineering support functions like test, quality, manufacturing, and supplier management." It continues: "MS was so focused on beating Sony this cycle that the 360 was rushed to market when all indications were that it had serious flaws. The design qual testing was insufficient and incomplete when the product was released to production."

The source also spoke about the newer designs, giving more cause for concern: "I've heard that the failure rates for the current design is sub 10 per cent. Much much better, but still too high."

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Message 51042 - Posted 28 Jan 2008 13:26:00 UTC - in response to Message ID 50569.

@agge

Swedish police charge Pirate Bay


What about this part, January 2008 is not yet over:

"Swedish prosecutors have announced that charges will be filed before the end of January 2008 against five individuals concerned."


I guess we'll know by the end of January, but like i said, this is nothing new. They've been under these kind of threats constantly, and they've been completely empty so far. They haven't had a leg to stand on, and no laws have changed, so I doubt they do now.

Most religions have been preaching Armageddon will come within a few years throughout history, why should one start taking them seriously now?


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Message 51049 - Posted 28 Jan 2008 19:38:06 UTC - in response to Message ID 51042.

nothing new here... still only 'plans', just like they've claimed to be doing for years. No laws have changed and, to me, it seems that the charges have less chance of being succesful now than ever. Public opinion is shifting in favour of 'piracy', and several people in the governing party are publicly against anti-piracy laws.
Before the elecion, the prime minister stated that "you can't lable an enire generation criminals"
I bet you 10 000 rosetta credits that nothing will come of this.
Perhaps we should continue this issue in the non-science section though.


@agge

Swedish police charge Pirate Bay


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Message 51542 - Posted 21 Feb 2008 17:23:06 UTC

From the BBC (Darren Waters 19 Feb 08, 02:41 GMT ):

Red ring of death returns

Microsoft wants consumers to believe that its problems with the Xbox 360 console in terms of hardware failure are over.

But wandering through the Game Developers Conference halls and it's clear that the problem persists.

On Microsoft's own stand at the show one of the demo consoles has a rather familiar problem - the red ring of death. There's no way of knowing if this particular console was manufactured before or after Microsoft identified the problems with the machines.

But at the very least it's embarrassing for the company that its own stock of demo machines are still susceptible to the problem.



Watch the video here

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Message 52227 - Posted 4 Apr 2008 8:01:48 UTC
Last modified: 4 Apr 2008 8:02:52 UTC

Any new news on this subject? It's been over TWO years since this was announced.

Lets try to stay on topic here guys.

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Message 67661 - Posted 9 Sep 2010 15:31:15 UTC - in response to Message ID 52227.

Any new news on this subject? It's been over TWO years since this was announced.

Lets try to stay on topic here guys.



4 years now

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Message 67664 - Posted 9 Sep 2010 18:52:00 UTC - in response to Message ID 39884.
Last modified: 9 Sep 2010 18:54:00 UTC

normally consoles are idle for far less time than PCs... so I'm not sure if they'll reach the deadline


I run Rosetta in the background on my PC constantly with no (major) loss of speed, etc. Given the sheer processing power of the 360, surely this could be applied also?


I do the same (except when I'm running some games where the performance hit is quite noticeable), but I had to install a water block on my i7 because my CPU (with the stock cooler) would eventually overheat after a couple of hours of running at 100% load, and another large heatsink on my motherboard made installing an aftermarket air cooler impractical.

The 360 has a pretty high failure rate already, mostly due to heat issues. I hear it's gotten a lot better in the last couple years but I'm still not entirely sure telling millions of 360 users to leave their consoles on 24/7 at 100% is necessarily a good idea.

Message boards : Rosetta@home Science : Boinc/Rosetta on the Xbox 360?


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